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  • FIRST POST
    • bintymins
    • By bintymins 29th Jun 18, 8:33 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 1Thanks
    bintymins
    ECP fine in Church car park
    • #1
    • 29th Jun 18, 8:33 PM
    ECP fine in Church car park 29th Jun 18 at 8:33 PM
    Hi
    Last week a person driving my car, parked in a Church car park to attend an evening class. It was their first time & they had never been there before. They were unfamiliar with the church & it's layout & it simply wasn't on their radar that there would be parking charges in force, particularly, as a month before, there had been a sign saying 'Private Property. Parishioners and Hall Users Only.' They drove into the car park, locked the car & went in. They were in a hurry and didn't notice the signs. I got the ECP PCN a week later. My point is that I don't really know how to argue this.
    Do I have a leg to stand on? The driver has written a very strong letter to the church but, they have been totally unsupportive and have the nerve to say that the 100 charge is fair!
    Some advice would be greatly appreciated!
    Many thanks!
    Last edited by bintymins; 15-07-2018 at 6:00 PM.
Page 1
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 29th Jun 18, 8:43 PM
    • 3,113 Posts
    • 4,756 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #2
    • 29th Jun 18, 8:43 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Jun 18, 8:43 PM
    I have no idea why you wouldn't expect a charge on private land that's why they should have signage on site.


    For further information on the scam that is private parking read the newbies thread it's all there.

    Use the appeal don't mention who the driver was

    Then come back for more clarification.


    You did right to complain to the church, do they know they are in bed with scammers that have been discussed in parliament where a bill is being decided to curtail the activities of these rogue companies?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 29th Jun 18, 8:49 PM
    • 7,773 Posts
    • 10,356 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 29th Jun 18, 8:49 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Jun 18, 8:49 PM
    Sounds like a self ticketing commission based system
    ECP operate

    Maybe the vicar gets signs and a camera from ECP and it's his
    way of saying "goodwill to all men" ... give us the money
    Last edited by beamerguy; 29-06-2018 at 8:51 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jun 18, 11:53 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,604 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 29th Jun 18, 11:53 PM
    • #4
    • 29th Jun 18, 11:53 PM
    My point is that I don't really know how to argue this.
    Whyever not? What's not clear in the top thread where the template appeal is?

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

    And:

    Do not reply if a poster with less than 1000 posts sends you a private message. People lurk and pop up and post on this forum with a dark agenda. Beware of 'unknown' new posters.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RichardD1970
    • By RichardD1970 30th Jun 18, 12:18 AM
    • 2,973 Posts
    • 4,436 Thanks
    RichardD1970
    • #5
    • 30th Jun 18, 12:18 AM
    • #5
    • 30th Jun 18, 12:18 AM
    You did right to complain to the church, do they know they are in bed with scammers that have been discussed in parliament where a bill is being decided to curtail the activities of these rogue companies?
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    Probably not.

    The amount of ignorance surrounding the whole PPC issue is staggering. I think we forget that sometimes being part of this forum.

    I am constantly arguing with people in my local FB group who blithely tell people to just bin it, and, to quote a legal director of a consumer solicitors "I can assure you that by ignoring it you are at no risk."

    He then accused me of trying be something I'm not and that reading a few forums and blogs doesn't make me an expert. He on the other hand deals with consumer law every day, don't you know (I had linked to this forum and Parking Prankster's site).

    Then you get the old Martin Lewis article from years ago and the Watchdog episode thrown in your face as proof.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 30th Jun 18, 6:55 AM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,593 Thanks
    NeilCr
    • #6
    • 30th Jun 18, 6:55 AM
    • #6
    • 30th Jun 18, 6:55 AM
    Probably not.

    The amount of ignorance surrounding the whole PPC issue is staggering. I think we forget that sometimes being part of this forum.
    Originally posted by RichardD1970
    I do think it gets forgotten a lot on this forum, if I am honest. Some live and breathe PPCs and are very passionate about the subject. Nothing wrong with that at all - but it does come across as aggressive, on occasions, which can be a bit off putting.

    I've been here a while and have got used to it - not sure how those who come for "one off" help feel. They get really good help but it's worth saying that, if you are new to it, it is bewildering - the acronyms, the times when you should send things etc etc etc. I do appreciate that folks should read the stickies first - I understand how frustrating it is to get asked the same question time and time again on a busy forum - when a lot of time and care has been taken in setting them the stickies up. It's life, though!.

    In CAB we've got used to people sitting in the waiting room for some time playing with their phones and then asking something they could have Googled in a minute. But there are varius reasons - overload of information, lazy (!), didn't think of it - mostly it's about needing to understand the context and having the confidence to believe in themselves. Quite often they need someone to affirm that they are on the right path. I see that quite a lot here. They've read the information but just aren't sure

    One thing I do find irking, is the "getting into bed with scammers" comment. It carries the suggestion that folks are, knowingly, getting involved in a rip off. As has been said many have no idea of the problems PPCs can bring. But, also, and this is the crux, there seem to be no viable and effective alternative. I think The Deep agreed with this in a previous thread. Much as I would not want a PPC on our estate (and have never wanted because I could see how divisive it could be) I can see situations where it would be very difficult to argue against it.

    Unfortunately, as we all know, there are selfish and inconsiderate parkers out there who have no regard for the danger they create or the other people who use the parking facilities. As I am aware from my own experience they also take no heed of signs, polite requests or yellow lines etc.

    ETA. Coincidentally!. I have just taken the rubbish out.. There is a car parked right next to a No Parking sign. This sign, politely, explains that it is there because anyone who parks there will be obstructing the entry by refuse carts and, most importantly, emergency vehicles into part of the estate. Go figure.

    Having learnt quite a lot from this forum - if we did end up having one (no chance at the moment) I'd go for self ticketing, not allowing them near the estate and ensure that we had the power to cancel tickets. And to make sure we used that power correctly!
    Last edited by NeilCr; 30-06-2018 at 7:57 AM.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 30th Jun 18, 9:01 AM
    • 3,113 Posts
    • 4,756 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #7
    • 30th Jun 18, 9:01 AM
    • #7
    • 30th Jun 18, 9:01 AM
    I do think it gets forgotten a lot on this forum, if I am honest. Some live and breathe PPCs and are very passionate about the subject. Nothing wrong with that at all - but it does come across as aggressive, on occasions, which can be a bit off putting.

    I've been here a while and have got used to it - not sure how those who come for "one off" help feel. They get really good help but it's worth saying that, if you are new to it, it is bewildering - the acronyms, the times when you should send things etc etc etc. I do appreciate that folks should read the stickies first - I understand how frustrating it is to get asked the same question time and time again on a busy forum - when a lot of time and care has been taken in setting them the stickies up. It's life, though!.

    In CAB we've got used to people sitting in the waiting room for some time playing with their phones and then asking something they could have Googled in a minute. But there are varius reasons - overload of information, lazy (!), didn't think of it - mostly it's about needing to understand the context and having the confidence to believe in themselves. Quite often they need someone to affirm that they are on the right path. I see that quite a lot here. They've read the information but just aren't sure

    One thing I do find irking, is the "getting into bed with scammers" comment. It carries the suggestion that folks are, knowingly, getting involved in a rip off. As has been said many have no idea of the problems PPCs can bring. But, also, and this is the crux, there seem to be no viable and effective alternative. I think The Deep agreed with this in a previous thread. Much as I would not want a PPC on our estate (and have never wanted because I could see how divisive it could be) I can see situations where it would be very difficult to argue against it.

    Unfortunately, as we all know, there are selfish and inconsiderate parkers out there who have no regard for the danger they create or the other people who use the parking facilities. As I am aware from my own experience they also take no heed of signs, polite requests or yellow lines etc.

    ETA. Coincidentally!. I have just taken the rubbish out.. There is a car parked right next to a No Parking sign. This sign, politely, explains that it is there because anyone who parks there will be obstructing the entry by refuse carts and, most importantly, emergency vehicles into part of the estate. Go figure.

    Having learnt quite a lot from this forum - if we did end up having one (no chance at the moment) I'd go for self ticketing, not allowing them near the estate and ensure that we had the power to cancel tickets. And to make sure we used that power correctly!
    Originally posted by NeilCr

    A balanced view thank you.


    Sorry but I stand by my "getting in to bed with scammers" quote, people should know who they are signing contracts with, and these PPC muppets, some of whom have criminal records, some have been proven to alter evidence, and target the sick and elderly, can affect your businesses.

    You also have touched on the answer to that in your final paragraph.

    And don't forget these are similar thoughts to the MP's debate recently.


    If I was letting strangers on my land, putting up signage, sending out threatening letters, and potentially using the court process off the back of my facilities you bet I would be doing my homework.
    The old adage you don't get "owt for nowt" would pull my cord, before signing a binding contract!


    I share your grief re inconsiderate parking, not reading signage, "I can't believe I had to pay on Sunday", I changed my Driving license details with the DVLA they should have known that I had moved, and no one else was ticketed etc.
    This is where I get stroppy with newbies and not so newbies, I get annoyed with laziness, and downright stupidity.


    But how can people expect to fight scammers that bully and lie if they can't take a little straight talking help in the right direction!
    Last edited by fisherjim; 30-06-2018 at 9:08 AM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 30th Jun 18, 9:09 AM
    • 18,352 Posts
    • 29,040 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 30th Jun 18, 9:09 AM
    • #8
    • 30th Jun 18, 9:09 AM
    Coincidentally!. I have just taken the rubbish out.. There is a car parked right next to a No Parking sign. This sign, politely, explains that it is there because anyone who parks there will be obstructing the entry by refuse carts and, most importantly, emergency vehicles into part of the estate. Go figure.
    Get a supply of these and stick one on the windscreen. Cheap enough, especially if it has the desired effect. I expect they'll think twice next time. They'll have a few weeks of wondering if more formal papers will be dropping through their letterbox.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311.R8.TR 12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xparking+.TRS0&_nkw=parking+tickets& _sacat=0
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Jun 18, 9:22 AM
    • 7,773 Posts
    • 10,356 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 30th Jun 18, 9:22 AM
    • #9
    • 30th Jun 18, 9:22 AM
    NeilCr .. a nice post which deserves an answer.

    A lot of the problems is the ignorance of people about
    the parking industry.

    They could and should do their homework first and
    google is the best tool in the box.
    Many come here as if it's a magic wand and all their
    problems can be solved. Hence the magic word for
    all newbies is to fully read the newbies thread where
    virtually every question is answered.

    They don't do that, hence they are told firmly to do so.
    It's not so much being aggressive but more being strict

    I would suggest that this forum has helped more people
    beat the parking scammers than the CAB and trading
    standards put together.

    Indeed we all remember comments made by the CAB
    to just pay up. That is not aggressive but it does let
    consumers down badly

    Yes, this a tough forum and regulars like myself will often
    just gasp at some stories we read but .... we are there to
    help and so if it means being tough on them, so be it
    They are of course very grateful when they beat a parking
    scammer with the help of the regulars.

    Also remember that this forum is a pain in the backside
    of a scammer

    "getting into bed with scammers" is the perfect sentence
    to describe the actions of those who employ them, be it
    a full blown "vermin on site" or a self ticketer who probably
    have not researched the scam to actually understand what
    will in the end be damaging for themselves

    Take into account the aggressive attitude of parking
    companies, the idiotic debt collectors and the more
    idiotic legals, this forum does a brilliant job to help
    people who are ignorant of such metters

    This is not a "play school" but a method of ....

    "When the going gets tough, the tough get going"
    Last edited by beamerguy; 30-06-2018 at 9:42 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 30th Jun 18, 10:21 AM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,593 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Thanks guys. It's good to be able to discuss rather than argue!

    A few points..

    Re CAB. As I've said before here we work in a way that means we have to give and record advice based on information systems. I have offered, on this forum, to take to the centre any incorrect information contained there about parking.

    CAB answers questions from people on a wide variety of topics - we get very few parking queries. I don't doubt that we get it wrong, on occasions. It's worth pointing out, though, that I have seen on this very forum in the last couple of weeks incorrect and out of date information and advice. Not on parking, itself, but related subjects

    Umkomaas. Tempting! The danger is on an estate of this size that we pretty much know each other and that sort of thing can lead to confrontation. It's why I am against having PPCs in - if I can possibly help it. It is also the problem with self ticketing - I've heard of quite nasty stuff happening when someone has been caught taking a picture of someone else's car.

    I am not sure that I share the view that a fair and equitable solution for everyone will come out of the Parliamentary debate. Time will tell

    I do, completely, understand the frustrations with newbies who haven't read anything. Some posters here are very polite in pointing them in the right direction. But others have been quite aggressive in their response - this could be, and is, offputting and, quite frankly, defeats the object of the forums. Helping people and stopping the "scammers". ETA - I think Quentin does a cracking job of steering newbies to the stickies and calming their fears.

    We can all stand by our view of "getting into bed with scammers". Even self ticketing, as I have been told on here in the past, is doing the same if you use one of the firms. And, you have to have someone to enforce - on an estate our size the directors doing it themselves would not work.

    In the end, as I see it, self ticketing with the backing of a company who have no presence on the estate, is the least worst option, as things stand. Assuming the normal reasonable steps have been tried and failed

    Thanks for the discussion guys!
    Last edited by NeilCr; 30-06-2018 at 11:03 AM.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Jun 18, 11:05 AM
    • 7,773 Posts
    • 10,356 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I think we all agree that the CAB has it's place and of course
    you are dealing with a range of problems
    I understand that last year the CAB had about 10,000
    complaints about parking problems, small in comparison
    to the bigger picture.

    A couple of years ago, I was helping someone with a non
    related issue and took her to the CAB.
    Seriously, I came out scratching my head as there was
    little or no advice given

    It is clear that the CAB do not have the knowledge or
    understanding about the parking scam and maybe, it
    would be sound advice to direct them to this site

    You are right about self ticketing, someone will end
    up with a bloody nose or worse
    I trust you would not consider employing one of these
    companies because that would be the start of a huge
    problem and probably a great story for the media

    I also have my doubts about the new bill, and time will tell

    Yes I have seen abrupt comments here but at the end
    of the day, if it means newbies understand and
    read the information given, it helps them and us to assist

    As far as giving incorrect information, if it is a regular,
    another regular would soon jump in and put them right.
    The problem we experience about bad advice normally
    comes from a troll who probably is from a parking
    company or one of their alien friends.

    All in all, this forum does a brilliant job and saves people
    money where they might have lost out.

    Bear in mind that all the info given is free with even real
    solicitors giving free advice, that is being passionate

    As you say ... Helping people and stopping the "scammers".
    However, for that to happen, they must help themselves to
    the vast array of info provided for them to which most
    on the newbies thread comes from coupon-mad
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 30th Jun 18, 11:25 AM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,593 Thanks
    NeilCr
    I might point them here "informally" but I couldn't do it officially! Agree that there are some people CAB struggle to help. Frankly, we have neither the time or resources to provide the sort of case management that goes on, say, here. You only have to look at the length of some threads to see that.

    In terms of incorrect information I have seen it from a couple of regulars. It gets changed but, unfortunately, on occasion the person has already acted on it!. It's why, when I post on the benefits board, which is what I know most about, I try to give a link to a reliable website so the person asking can have a read of the information.

    With you, in the fact that it is normally trolls that do it. We've had an ongoing (not around at the moment, touch wood) awful troll on the benefits forum who could have (and may have) caused considerable problems for vulnerable people

    We are nowhere near bringing in a PPC. In the great scheme of things our residents are considerate and sensible with their parking. We did offer parking posts to some in one of our car parks when there was a problem with "outsiders" and that worked well. Our issues lie with the private access road, mainly. But, it was becoming a major concern last year with one particular flat and it's residents who continually parked by the No Parking sign mentioned above. And a while back someone started a child minding business that created havoc.

    I think it's just when all reasonable efforts have failed you run out of options. Much as people here don't like it I can see why you would fall back on some sort of control and ticketing. It becomes emotive.

    And it is great what you do, don't get me wrong. Passion is always good! It's just, sometimes, I see the other POV too.
    Last edited by NeilCr; 30-06-2018 at 11:30 AM.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Jun 18, 12:13 PM
    • 7,773 Posts
    • 10,356 Thanks
    beamerguy
    We all understand the problems you have and we are
    the first to say if we feel someone is abusing the situation

    If you do bring in parking control, make certain you
    do not employ any of those you see on here.

    They must come in on your terms with a trial period
    and you must have a written guarantee that if you tell
    them to cancel a ticket, it will be done with no penalty
    to you such as an admin charge.
    Above all, they must not be given permission to
    take anyone to court

    This will of course limit the number of companies
    available to you

    They must not see your area as a cash cow.

    Avoid any company who uses the IPC as an ATA as they
    represent the cash cow cowboys

    I like the idea of Umkomaas as long as it does not use
    the word PENALTY

    It's cheap way to see if that works
    Last edited by beamerguy; 30-06-2018 at 12:53 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • bintymins
    • By bintymins 30th Jun 18, 2:52 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    bintymins
    Evidence?
    Thanks so much for your reply. I'm filling out the online appeal form but I don't know what to use as my evidence! That's why I asked if I have a leg to stand on. Do I just use the appeal letter & ignore the evidence box? Really sorry if the reply is obvious! I'm a newbie and I don't want to wind any of you guys up!
    Thanks!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 30th Jun 18, 5:05 PM
    • 8,026 Posts
    • 7,882 Thanks
    KeithP
    Have you read post#1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?

    Have you found the blue text template appeal yet?

    If so, send that appeal without change. Do not add anything to it or adjust it in any way.

    Send it as the keeper.

    Evidence? None needed at this stage.
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 30th Jun 18, 6:47 PM
    • 18,352 Posts
    • 29,040 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    @NeilCr

    Umkomaas. Tempting! The danger is on an estate of this size that we pretty much know each other and that sort of thing can lead to confrontation. It's why I am against having PPCs in - if I can possibly help it. It is also the problem with self ticketing - I've heard of quite nasty stuff happening when someone has been caught taking a picture of someone else's car.
    I thought it was a random fly-parker's car, rather than an estate resident.

    If you do wish to take the 'Armageddon' option, The Deep has given these a qualified recommendation!

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=68038012&postcount=3

    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • bintymins
    • By bintymins 13th Jul 18, 9:14 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    bintymins
    Hi, I managed to lose my way a bit and sent the standard appeal before I read the bit about waiting until day 26? ( not sure & can't find where I read it....). I have been away & have just seen that I received a rejection of the appeal on 5th July but it was sent via email not by post. They provided pictures of a driver driving the car in question in and out & pictures of notices in the car park. I am feeling very out of my depth & beginning to panic. I also received a letter from the Church refusing to help saying that, ECP deals with all enquiries relating to the car park which "leaves them free to continue with the mission of the Church"!!! Should I start a POPLA appeal or wait for a rejection letter in the post please? I'd be very grateful for any advice. Thank you.
    Last edited by bintymins; 14-07-2018 at 8:46 AM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jul 18, 9:39 PM
    • 18,352 Posts
    • 29,040 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Did you give them your name and full postal address in your initial appeal?

    Did you use the template initial appeal from the forum's NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1?

    Have they given you a POPLA Code to use?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 13th Jul 18, 9:59 PM
    • 3,637 Posts
    • 4,802 Thanks
    waamo
    They have provided pictures of a driver in your car. Unless they have facial recognition systems and access to all the national databases then I doubt they can say who is driving.

    I suggest you edit your post to remove references to who the driver may be.
    This space for hire.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jul 18, 10:03 PM
    • 18,352 Posts
    • 29,040 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    They provided pictures of me driving my car in and out
    So they know what you look like - and can work that out from the thousands of tickets they issue each day - from John O'Groats to Lands End?

    Just think about it!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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