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  • FIRST POST
    • FabFifty
    • By FabFifty 28th Jun 18, 11:46 PM
    • 58Posts
    • 92Thanks
    FabFifty
    Cloned registration plate
    • #1
    • 28th Jun 18, 11:46 PM
    Cloned registration plate 28th Jun 18 at 11:46 PM
    Evening. Can anyone out there assist me please? Have today received a Penalty Charge Notice from Ealing Council stating that my vehicle was photographed in a bus lane last week whilst I was in Warwickshire, driving home from work. The make, model and colour of vehicle are exactly the same, the numbers/letters are the same but the actual registration plate is slightly different to mine (I have a blue line around the plate and EU markings).
    I've sent an email to Warwickshire police to advise that my vehicle registration has been cloned. Internet advice seems to be to also advise DVLA. In the morning I will compose a letter to Ealing Council refuting the PCN - what information should I include, is there a template letter somewhere that might help? I called into a local post office on my way home from work to post a parcel and have a receipt timed at 17:07, and the offence supposedly occurred at 17:29.
    Any assistance gratefully received.
Page 3
    • Ectophile
    • By Ectophile 4th Jul 18, 9:48 PM
    • 3,206 Posts
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    Ectophile
    Read the op.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....

    It's obvious that AndyMc..... likes being obtuse.


    If it's a civil case, then the requirement is to convince the judge, on the balance of probabilities, that the claimant is right. There's no requirement for proof beyond reasonable doubt.


    The rules for criminal cases are different. That does require proof beyond reasonable doubt.



    A penalty charge notice is likely to be a civil case, and not a criminal prosecution.
    If it sticks, force it.
    If it breaks, well it wasn't working right anyway.
    • The little guy
    • By The little guy 5th Jul 18, 8:07 AM
    • 4 Posts
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    The little guy
    Hi, I'm new to this forum and have a thread open very similar to yours. Thank you for contacting me.

    Why was your first reaction that it must be a cloned car?

    I was told the same, however I contacted the police to inform them of such but didn't believe it myself as you know my accusation and theory is that the PCN has had the plate digitally added.

    Do exactly what I did I would love to know if it's the same.

    Contact the police to report the 'potential' cloned plate. Give them the date and time.

    Tell them you was not in the area at all and can they run an anpr check on your plate for that day. They will only be able to say you want in a certain general area they will not tel you where the car was on that date.

    So I was told no anpr ping was seen in the London area on the date of my PCN contravention. I live well outside the London area to the point I never visit.

    This will at the very least tell you that on the day of the contravention only one car wearing your plates had been pinged on your date of contravention.

    I hope this helps.

    If what has happened to me has happened to you this will show its not an isolated incedent.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 5th Jul 18, 8:38 AM
    • 1,695 Posts
    • 1,064 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Hi, I'm new to this forum and have a thread open very similar to yours. Thank you for contacting me.

    Why was your first reaction that it must be a cloned car?

    I was told the same, however I contacted the police to inform them of such but didn't believe it myself as you know my accusation and theory is that the PCN has had the plate digitally added.

    Do exactly what I did I would love to know if it's the same.

    Contact the police to report the 'potential' cloned plate. Give them the date and time.

    Tell them you was not in the area at all and can they run an anpr check on your plate for that day. They will only be able to say you want in a certain general area they will not tel you where the car was on that date.

    So I was told no anpr ping was seen in the London area on the date of my PCN contravention. I live well outside the London area to the point I never visit.

    This will at the very least tell you that on the day of the contravention only one car wearing your plates had been pinged on your date of contravention.

    I hope this helps.

    If what has happened to me has happened to you this will show its not an isolated incedent.
    Originally posted by The little guy

    If there is a cloned car it would still only show one car.
    Hi there! Weve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if youre unsure why its been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • The little guy
    • By The little guy 5th Jul 18, 11:03 AM
    • 4 Posts
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    The little guy
    If 2 cars with the same plate travel in 2 separate locations each ping would show up in a different location in and around the same time give or take when and where the ping was.

    For example if I lived in Leeds and parked at work in leeds the ANPR would show my journey to and from that location. If a ping was seen in London on the same date the car would have been pinged several times that day travelling to London.

    But if it was pinged in London without any pings on how that plate got to london from Leeds in the space of an impossible time frame questions would be asked on how 2 pings could exist so far apart in 2 very different locations in such a short time frame.

    I believe anpr pings can be used to track a cars movements.

    I hope I'm making sense?
    • The little guy
    • By The little guy 5th Jul 18, 4:50 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    The little guy
    Can and administrator please remove this post

    I believe it has provided me with the help and advice I need.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 5th Jul 18, 4:56 PM
    • 3,622 Posts
    • 4,787 Thanks
    waamo
    Can and administrator please remove this post

    I believe it has provided me with the help and advice I need.
    Originally posted by The little guy
    Why delete a post because you've had help? That seems really selfish, suppose someone else had a very similar problem. By seeing your question and replies it could aid them rather than everyone having to repeat themselves.
    This space for hire.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 5th Jul 18, 4:58 PM
    • 10,780 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    Why delete a post because you've had help? That seems really selfish, suppose someone else had a very similar problem. By seeing your question and replies it could aid them rather than everyone having to repeat themselves.
    Originally posted by waamo
    This ^^^^^^
    • usefulmale
    • By usefulmale 5th Jul 18, 5:02 PM
    • 2,433 Posts
    • 4,474 Thanks
    usefulmale
    It's obvious that AndyMc..... likes being obtuse.

    If it's a civil case, then the requirement is to convince the judge, on the balance of probabilities, that the claimant is right. There's no requirement for proof beyond reasonable doubt.

    The rules for criminal cases are different. That does require proof beyond reasonable doubt.

    A penalty charge notice is likely to be a civil case, and not a criminal prosecution.
    Originally posted by Ectophile

    For being obtuse, read doesn't know what he is talking about.


    You are right in that in most areas it would be a civil offence. However, in some areas, the police will issue proceedings, making it a criminal offence (sadly for the OP, Ealing is not one of those areas). An interesting point to note is that in civil cases, it is the OWNER who is liable, not the driver.


    If there is a cloned car it would still only show one car.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....

    Total rubbish. If it could be co-ordinated, you could have cars with the same plate pass every camera in the UK at the same time on the same day and every camera will record it.


    The cameras merely note the plate and uploads the info to a database.


    If the OP pinged a camera in Warwickshire at, say, 17:25, and an identical plate pinged a camera in Ealing at, say, 17:30 then both instances will be uploaded to the database and the software could then extract the records to show it is an impossible journey to make.
    Signature removed by ForumTeam again
    • The little guy
    • By The little guy 5th Jul 18, 5:11 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    The little guy
    Sorry please to not repeat do not delete this post! Wrong thread
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 5th Jul 18, 5:16 PM
    • 3,097 Posts
    • 1,928 Thanks
    Car 54
    Total rubbish. If it could be co-ordinated, you could have cars with the same plate pass every camera in the UK at the same time on the same day and every camera will record it.

    The cameras merely note the plate and uploads the info to a database.

    If the OP pinged a camera in Warwickshire at, say, 17:25, and an identical plate pinged a camera in Ealing at, say, 17:30 then both instances will be uploaded to the database and the software could then extract the records to show it is an impossible journey to make.
    Originally posted by usefulmale

    You are assuming that all ANPR 'captures' are recorded on a single national database. Can you verify that?


    AIUI some ANPR cameras are operated by DVLA, and check reg. nos against their system for tax or insurance infringements.


    Others are operated by the police, check numbers against the PNC, and presumably record sightings on the forces own local crime system.


    Is there really a Big Brother system pulling all that together?
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 5th Jul 18, 5:35 PM
    • 1,695 Posts
    • 1,064 Thanks
    AndyMc.....

    Total rubbish. If it could be co-ordinated, you could have cars with the same plate pass every camera in the UK at the same time on the same day and every camera will record it.


    The cameras merely note the plate and uploads the info to a database.


    If the OP pinged a camera in Warwickshire at, say, 17:25, and an identical plate pinged a camera in Ealing at, say, 17:30 then both instances will be uploaded to the database and the software could then extract the records to show it is an impossible journey to make.
    Originally posted by usefulmale

    Cloned car, same reg, same make, same model.

    ANPR reads the reg which is then checked against various databases and then the PNC, which is a direct lift from the DVLA.

    How many cars will it produce? One.
    Hi there! Weve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if youre unsure why its been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 5th Jul 18, 5:37 PM
    • 1,695 Posts
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    AndyMc.....
    You are assuming that all ANPR 'captures' are recorded on a single national database. Can you verify that?


    AIUI some ANPR cameras are operated by DVLA, and check reg. nos against their system for tax or insurance infringements.


    Others are operated by the police, check numbers against the PNC, and presumably record sightings on the forces own local crime system.


    Is there really a Big Brother system pulling all that together?
    Originally posted by Car 54
    ANPR is both local and national as far as the police are concerned.
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    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 5th Jul 18, 5:39 PM
    • 1,695 Posts
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    AndyMc.....
    For being obtuse, read doesn't know what he is talking about.


    You are right in that in most areas it would be a civil offence. However, in some areas, the police will issue proceedings, making it a criminal offence (sadly for the OP, Ealing is not one of those areas). An interesting point to note is that in civil cases, it is the OWNER who is liable, not the driver.
    Originally posted by usefulmale
    So in this case it's YOU who doesn't know what their talking about when it comes to the burden of proof.
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    • usefulmale
    • By usefulmale 5th Jul 18, 7:18 PM
    • 2,433 Posts
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    usefulmale
    You are assuming that all ANPR 'captures' are recorded on a single national database. Can you verify that?


    AIUI some ANPR cameras are operated by DVLA, and check reg. nos against their system for tax or insurance infringements.


    Others are operated by the police, check numbers against the PNC, and presumably record sightings on the forces own local crime system.


    Is there really a Big Brother system pulling all that together?
    Originally posted by Car 54

    The records generated by APNR cameras operated by the various police forces are stored centrally at the National APNR Data Centre at Hendon


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition_in_the_United_K ingdom
    Signature removed by ForumTeam again
    • usefulmale
    • By usefulmale 5th Jul 18, 7:30 PM
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    usefulmale
    So in this case it's YOU who doesn't know what their talking about when it comes to the burden of proof.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....

    However, another poster spelled out the details, not you, even after I invited you to do so.


    All you had were pithy one-liners.


    Lets assume the OP is in a town in South Warwickshire, say Shipston-on-Stour. That's 80 miles from Ealing. An ANPR ping of the same registration in both places within half an hour of each other clearly means something is wrong somewhere.


    Even with the balance of probabilities, it's an impossible journey, especially at the 5pm rush-hour as per the OP.
    Signature removed by ForumTeam again
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 5th Jul 18, 8:18 PM
    • 1,695 Posts
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    AndyMc.....
    However, another poster spelled out the details, not you, even after I invited you to do so.


    All you had were pithy one-liners.


    Lets assume the OP is in a town in South Warwickshire, say Shipston-on-Stour. That's 80 miles from Ealing. An ANPR ping of the same registration in both places within half an hour of each other clearly means something is wrong somewhere.


    Even with the balance of probabilities, it's an impossible journey, especially at the 5pm rush-hour as per the OP.
    Originally posted by usefulmale
    Yes, but in the case of a cloned vehicle there will only be one in relation of any registration checks on the PNC.

    The same vehicle could appear to be at opposite ends of the country at the same time.

    Do you get it now?
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    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 6th Jul 18, 9:06 AM
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    DoaM
    Yes, we do ... it means that there would be reasonable doubt as to the veracity of any PCN. (Reasonable doubt is stronger than balance of probabilities). So if the keeper could provide other evidence to support the fact that the true vehicle with that VRM was not the one that generated the PCN then the PCN has no validity and must be cancelled.

    Which is what everyone else has been saying but you've just been trying to be a smart rse pursuing a very minor point for nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory. Well done you.
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    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 6th Jul 18, 1:41 PM
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    AndyMc.....
    Yes, we do ... it means that there would be reasonable doubt as to the veracity of any PCN. (Reasonable doubt is stronger than balance of probabilities). So if the keeper could provide other evidence to support the fact that the true vehicle with that VRM was not the one that generated the PCN then the PCN has no validity and must be cancelled.

    Which is what everyone else has been saying but you've just been trying to be a smart rse pursuing a very minor point for nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory. Well done you.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    And as I said, he may have a problem showing where his vehicle was if he is to rely on ANPR.
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    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 6th Jul 18, 2:27 PM
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    NBLondon
    And as I said, he may have a problem showing where his vehicle was if he is to rely on ANPR.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    if he was to rely on ANPR only

    if the OP has other evidence - photos of the vehicle that differ from the one on the PCN; evidence that he/the usual driver was in the same vicinity as one of the ANPR records - that supports the claim that the vehicle incurring the PCN is the clone...
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