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  • FIRST POST
    • tempsc
    • By tempsc 27th Jun 18, 9:11 AM
    • 83Posts
    • 43Thanks
    tempsc
    NCP and DASH parking
    • #1
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:11 AM
    NCP and DASH parking 27th Jun 18 at 9:11 AM
    Hi.

    Some advice please.

    I have been issued with a Parking CHARGE Notice by NCP due to not having a 'valid parking ticket'. I had used the Dash parking cashless system on my phone and paid for a period of '1 day' at around 19:30 one evening. I was due to return by around 12:00 the next day and so assumed that as that period was less than 24hours, 1 day would be sufficient. Unfortunately, NCP's day at that site started and ended at 04:00 and so I was in the odd situation of having paid for a day, when technically I should have paid for two days to cover the part of the day I had arrived from (19:30 - 03:59) and the 'second day' (04:00 until 12:30). Taking it to the extreme, I could have found myself arriving at 03:59, paying for '1 day' and being liable for a PCN just 120 seconds later!

    Anyway, I appealed the PCN with NCP and they refused my appeal. I have also appealed to POPLA and am awaiting their judgement.

    So, having read some other posts, I have a few queries;

    1. Does the situation as described above seem odd to you too....or am I really missing something?

    2. As this is a Parking CHARGE Notice, should / can I just ignore it anyway?

    3. As I have appealed, does this affect things or should I have just ignored it from the start?

    4. Should Dash parking have advised the start/end times for '1 day' at this location? (I have been corresponding with them about this matter but they are very flippant and practically impossible to communicate with).

    5. NB: If it's of help to other readers, I do have contact details for Dash parking now - email addresses of exec management etc

    Thanks in advance for any advice.
    Paul.
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 27th Jun 18, 9:23 AM
    • 9,996 Posts
    • 9,811 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:23 AM
    • #2
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:23 AM
    The sign is, imo, ambiguous a day either ends at midnight, or 24 hours after it began, it certainly does end at 4 a.m.

    Complain in writing t
    o your local Trading Standards Department, (not CAB), and your MP.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 27-06-2018 at 9:26 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 27th Jun 18, 10:11 AM
    • 8,870 Posts
    • 9,223 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #3
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:11 AM
    • #3
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:11 AM
    As well as the above, please inform yourself properly about the current state of private parking and how to properly challenge tickets by carefully reading the Newbies Sticky at the top of the forum - your situation is fully covered in post one!
    • tempsc
    • By tempsc 27th Jun 18, 10:14 AM
    • 83 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    tempsc
    • #4
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:14 AM
    NCP and DASH parking
    • #4
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:14 AM
    Thanks The Deep.

    Just off the phone with Trading Standards. They agree with me/you and have referred the matter onwards due to their impression that the pricing basis is misleading. Hopefully it will get a result. I'm also starting a draft letter to my MP.

    Any further advice from your goodself or others on the other points in my 1st post would be appreciated.

    For information, the advice from Trading Standards is that I have done the right thing in complaining to POPLA. They also advise this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter. They warn that NCP may pursue to the court and sue me for any 'debts' - (PCN value + any other costs) etc.

    Thanks again.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 27th Jun 18, 10:40 AM
    • 3,178 Posts
    • 4,877 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #5
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:40 AM
    • #5
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:40 AM
    Thanks The Deep.

    Just off the phone with Trading Standards. They agree with me/you and have referred the matter onwards due to their impression that the pricing basis is misleading. Hopefully it will get a result. I'm also starting a draft letter to my MP.

    Any further advice from your goodself or others on the other points in my 1st post would be appreciated.

    For information, the advice from Trading Standards is that I have done the right thing in complaining to POPLA. They also advise this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter. They warn that NCP may pursue to the court and sue me for any 'debts' - (PCN value + any other costs) etc.

    Thanks again.
    Originally posted by tempsc

    They could but highly unlikely with this bunch!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 27th Jun 18, 10:42 AM
    • 19,399 Posts
    • 30,641 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:42 AM
    • #6
    • 27th Jun 18, 10:42 AM
    1. Does the situation as described above seem odd to you too....or am I really missing something?
    Another 'trick of the trade' to catch the motorist out.

    2. As this is a Parking CHARGE Notice, should / can I just ignore it anyway?
    You can do, once POPLA has adjudicated - win or lose (their decision isn't binding on you). What you mustn't ignore are court papers, but unlikely from NCP.

    3. As I have appealed, does this affect things or should I have just ignored it from the start?
    It was correct action not to have ignored it from the start. Half the new threads we get are from those who ignored things from the start, and many are now faced with court proceedings.

    4. Should Dash parking have advised the start/end times for '1 day' at this location?
    More a question for Trading Standards than this forum. Their slap-dash (no pun intended) methods are manna to the private parking world, because every time Dash screw up, the parking companies screw you. All part of the simply awful private parking scam.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 27-06-2018 at 1:05 PM.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 27th Jun 18, 11:51 AM
    • 8,441 Posts
    • 11,102 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #7
    • 27th Jun 18, 11:51 AM
    • #7
    • 27th Jun 18, 11:51 AM
    They could but highly unlikely with this bunch!
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    Especially as NCP have a delightful history

    NCP fork out £87,000 after towing car illegally

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2013/08/ncp-fork-out-87000-after-towing-car.html
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 27th Jun 18, 2:05 PM
    • 9,215 Posts
    • 9,397 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 27th Jun 18, 2:05 PM
    • #8
    • 27th Jun 18, 2:05 PM
    Is this a railway station car park?
    .
    • tempsc
    • By tempsc 27th Jun 18, 2:47 PM
    • 83 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    tempsc
    • #9
    • 27th Jun 18, 2:47 PM
    • #9
    • 27th Jun 18, 2:47 PM
    Hi Keith. Yes. Manningtree in Essex.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Jun 18, 3:55 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Anyway, I appealed the PCN with NCP and they refused my appeal. I have also appealed to POPLA and am awaiting their judgement.
    Wish you had come here first.

    ''No keeper liability'' would 100% have won it, and a normal appeal is dodgy. Never mind!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • tempsc
    • By tempsc 28th Jun 18, 6:20 PM
    • 83 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    tempsc
    Oh dear coupon-mad.

    So. What are my options? I'm getting a tad confused here now.

    Ignore, appeal, pay fine?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 28th Jun 18, 6:56 PM
    • 9,215 Posts
    • 9,397 Thanks
    KeithP
    As you have already appealed to PoPLA, wait for their determination.

    Not sure that anyone has suggested that you pay anything, have they?

    If PoPLA refuse your appeal then you will need to prepare yourself for the barrage of debt collector's letters coming your way by reading post #4 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    If the carpark is covered by Railway Byelaws, you will be safe from any court action after six months from the date of the parking incident.

    When was your parking incident?
    .
    • waamo
    • By waamo 28th Jun 18, 7:37 PM
    • 4,196 Posts
    • 5,506 Thanks
    waamo
    Check out the odds of them going to court http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/National_Car_Parks.html

    I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
    This space for hire.
    • tempsc
    • By tempsc 4th Jul 18, 2:18 PM
    • 83 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    tempsc
    Just received the below response to my POPLA appeal. Any further advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

    Operator Name NCP Ltd
    Operator Case Summary
    The motorist has appealed on the basis that they paid to park for 24 hours and did not receive 24 hours of parking. They state they were unaware that parking sessions at this location automatically expire at 03;59am as they have not had the opportunity to read the signage due to them being too far away from where they parked on the date of event.

    We note the appellants comment and sympathise with their situation however, as they are a regular long time customer to this car park and due there being multiple signage within the car park, we feel that the appellant had ample opportunity to read the signage on site. Tempsc note: I'm not a long term and regular user. 9 times since the start of 2018!

    When the Parking Attendant approaches the vehicle, with the use of his handheld, he can bring up details of any payments against the vehicle via Pay by phone. If any payments are made against this vehicle registration, the payment will be recognised and will be displayed on his screen. Dash Parking provides the motorist with a confirmation text or email upon a successful purchase of a parking session which indicates the start and finish time of their parking session, and therefore the appellant would have been pre advised that their parking session expired at 03;59am.

    There is signage on the entrance to the car park and multiple signs located throughout the site. NCP also place signage close to the pay and display machines in order to bring the Terms and Conditions to the attention of motorists. The Size and the font on the signage is British Parking Association approved and the BPA have indeed praised NCP for displaying signs larger than they recommend in their code of practice. The appellant had the opportunity to observe the sites Terms and Conditions when gaining the information on how to pay and how much to pay for a parking session as the Terms and Conditions are stated on our website and on the pay and display machines on site.

    Paragraph 5d of the sites Terms and Conditions clearly states In pay and display car parks you must do one of the following: which then details the paragraph 5d, which states you pay all amounts due for your parking and comply with the requirements set out at clause 10 (Ticket types and payment methods) of these Terms. For the avoidance of doubt, if you choose to pay the parking tariff by using the Pay By Mobile service, the payment must be made at the time of parking your vehicle in the Car Park and in any event, before you leave your vehicle in the Car Park.

    10b) Pay By Mobile – you must register an account and use the pay by mobile service provided by the relevant service provider in accordance with its terms and conditions ( Information is available at http://www.ncp.co.uk) and then (Upon parking in the car park and before leaving your vehicle in the car park purchase the amount of time for which you would like to park.)

    It is the responsibility of every motorist to observe and comply with the Terms and Conditions our facilities are provided and managed under and by leaving the vehicle the appellant indicated their acceptance of our displayed conditions and equally accepted that a PCN would be issued for non compliance of the displayed conditions.

    To conclude the PCN has been issued correctly for a clear breach of the displayed conditions and NCP have submitted sufficient evidence to support the enforcement of the Notice.

    POPLA state decisions will be based on finding of fact; the facts are that the appellant parked in clear breach of our displayed Terms and Conditions and NCP trust that POPLA will find no reasonable grounds to allow this appeal.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jul 18, 3:01 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Well I hope you know not the pay NCP if you lose at POPLA, it means nothing. Frustrated you didn't come here earlier though; such an easy one for a keeper to have won. NEVER admit to driving, to a PPC.

    Clearly you get seven days to add comments. Don't say you are not a regular user of the car park because you are. Makes no difference!

    How about looking to expose what evidence they have not supplied?

    e.g. they say you 'would have got a text' saying the session expired at 3.59am but have they shown that as fact? A screenshot of that text? NO?? And, they say the signs clearly state this rule about 24 hour parking but again, look at their signage evidence - have they shown this as fact? NO?? Buried in small print in a thousand word t&cs sign, perhaps?!

    You must comment in the POPLA Portal, now, to try to steer the Assessor the right way. If you lose, ignore them unless they try a small claim, where you could argue things like an 'unfair and unclear contractual term' and we win almost every case (NCP hardly ever try court).

    No worries either way but go through the evidence with a fine tooth-comb. Find the holes in evidence supplied and show POPLA, this week.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-07-2018 at 3:53 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • tempsc
    • By tempsc 4th Jul 18, 3:31 PM
    • 83 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    tempsc
    Thank you Coupon-Mad.

    Really appreciate yr assistance here. I'll start to pull together any other evidence I can to dismantle the evidence provided by NCP.
    • tempsc
    • By tempsc 5th Jul 18, 10:36 AM
    • 83 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    tempsc
    This is the draft of my responses in blue to the evidence provided by NCP to my first appeal. Would be grateful for any comments/guidance. By the way, would anyone know if I can also add photographs to this response, just as I could on the first appeal? Also, should I just send the response as I have done here - answering NCP's statements or should I just send in my responses (text in blue)?

    Thank you again.

    Operator Name NCP Ltd
    Operator Case Summary
    The motorist has appealed on the basis that they paid to park for 24 hours and did not receive 24 hours of parking. They state they were unaware that parking sessions at this location automatically expire at 03;59am as they have not had the opportunity to read the signage due to them being too far away from where they parked on the date of event. The Manningtree Rail Station car park operates on a 24hr a day basis. As NCP’s partners, Dash Parking, provides a facility to pay by mobile phone to both new users and those that have parked at that location previously, it would seem logical that given the differing periods that Dash Parking provides on their automated system includes ‘Days’, then that would lead to an understanding that when one selects the period of a day, that period would indeed be for a period of 24hrs. NCP in their response do not appear to have acknowledged the very important point I made that it is perfectly feasible that as the car park operates for 24hrs, entry to the car park and automated payment can be taken at any period within 24hrs. Thus, should I arrive at the car park at 03:59 and pay for a ‘day’, I could find myself being penalised and receiving a PCN just 120 seconds later. Similarly, should I arrive and pay at 03:59 and leave at let’s say 12:30, the current system would require that I pay for two days for a period of a little more than 8 hours. I’m sure POPLA considers that situation both ridiculous and unfair to drivers.

    We note the appellants comment and sympathise with their situation however, as they are a regular long time customer to this car park and due there being multiple signage within the car park, we feel that the appellant had ample opportunity to read the signage on site.

    NCP state that there is multiple signage within the car park. Helpfully, NCP have also provided evidence of the signage in Part G of the documentation they provided to which I would comment as follows. On re-visiting the car park to check, I would remind POPLA and thus NCP that the main sign for the car park is situated at the entrance, very close to the junction to the station approach road. This is a busy junction and one which needs considerable care due to the road layout. There is simply no chance of being able to read all the details NCP have included on the sign when approaching the car park without being a considerable hazard to other motorists. This sign is in a ridiculous position and should be urgently re-positioned as also mentioned in my original POPLA appeal. As per the aerial photograph provided by NCP, I would like to focus upon the signage situated at the multi storey car park. On the aerial photograph, NCP have positioned a letter ‘A’ for the position of where my car was parked. It also appears that there is a sign situated at the multi storey car park as indicated by a red box on the photograph. In actual fact, on personally checking this for clarity, I found that there is a sign within the position indicated, but, crucially, this sign is situated on the UPPER deck of the car park only and NOT on the ground level of the car park below, which is where my vehicle was parked, this being immediately adjacent to the car park exist steps to walk up to get to ground level. I also have photographic evidence of this fact. The only signs at this location are a Dash Parking information sign, a sign prohibiting the transfer of fuel and a local Rotary Club sign, pasted to one of the steel columns. There is no NCP signage at this point. The other sign that is indeed positioned correctly is the information sign which is close to the entrance to the station. It asks, ‘Have you paid to park’? In my case, yes, I had, for a ‘day’ which in my mind and most other reasonable people and a universal, internationally agreed global standard, a period of 24hrs.

    When the Parking Attendant approaches the vehicle, with the use of his handheld, he can bring up details of any payments against the vehicle via Pay by phone. If any payments are made against this vehicle registration, the payment will be recognised and will be displayed on his screen. Dash Parking provides the motorist with a confirmation text or email upon a successful purchase of a parking session which indicates the start and finish time of their parking session, and therefore the appellant would have been pre advised that their parking session expired at 03;59am.

    There is signage on the entrance to the car park and multiple signs located throughout the site. NCP also place signage close to the pay and display machines in order to bring the Terms and Conditions to the attention of motorists. The Size and the font on the signage is British Parking Association approved and the BPA have indeed praised NCP for displaying signs larger than they recommend in their code of practice. The appellant had the opportunity to observe the sites Terms and Conditions when gaining the information on how to pay and how much to pay for a parking session as the Terms and Conditions are stated on our website and on the pay and display machines on site. May I recommend that the BPA revisit the recommendations within their code of practice to also include that the signs are ‘suitably positioned’ to ensure that they are not a hazard?

    Paragraph 5d of the sites Terms and Conditions clearly states In pay and display car parks you must do one of the following: which then details the paragraph 5d, which states you pay all amounts due for your parking and comply with the requirements set out at clause 10 (Ticket types and payment methods) of these Terms. For the avoidance of doubt, if you choose to pay the parking tariff by using the Pay By Mobile service, the payment must be made at the time of parking your vehicle in the Car Park and in any event, before you leave your vehicle in the Car Park.

    10b) Pay By Mobile – you must register an account and use the pay by mobile service provided by the relevant service provider in accordance with its terms and conditions ( Information is available at http://www.ncp.co.uk) and then (Upon parking in the car park and before leaving your vehicle in the car park purchase the amount of time for which you would like to park.)

    It is the responsibility of every motorist to observe and comply with the Terms and Conditions our facilities are provided and managed under and by leaving the vehicle the appellant indicated their acceptance of our displayed conditions and equally accepted that a PCN would be issued for non compliance of the displayed conditions.

    To conclude the PCN has been issued correctly for a clear breach of the displayed conditions and NCP have submitted sufficient evidence to support the enforcement of the Notice.

    POPLA state decisions will be based on finding of fact; the facts are that the appellant parked in clear breach of our displayed Terms and Conditions and NCP trust that POPLA will find no reasonable grounds to allow this appeal.
    In closing, NCP states that the facts are I was in clear breach of their displayed terms and conditions. In actual fact as stated by myself, NCP and their partners Dash Parking provide a confusing system for payment and what constitutes a ‘day’ when using the automated payment system in a 24hrs operating car park. Also, the fact that the evidence provided by NCP is misleading as it appears there is adequate signage positioned to inform drivers when in fact there isn’t.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 5th Jul 18, 10:51 AM
    • 37,391 Posts
    • 84,262 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Put some paragraph spacings in there to break up the wall of text a bit.

    Also, include the photos where you rebut their signage evidence to prove your point.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • waamo
    • By waamo 5th Jul 18, 11:05 AM
    • 4,196 Posts
    • 5,506 Thanks
    waamo
    I would be tempted to hung a bit in along the lines of

    The operator makes several references to their terms and conditions. This car park is governed by railway byelaws. Contractual terms and conditions cannot override statutory law which these terms and conditions attempt to do.

    The operators terms and conditions are therefore not binding contractually as they are bound to rely on the byelaws in place.

    It will be ignored by POPLA but serves two purposes. Firstly it sets your stall out and lets NCP know you are aware of a byelaws issue.

    Secondly it gives POPLA something to think about. Some of these assessors aren't the brightest sparks and may well squirm at making a decision.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 18, 3:54 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    would anyone know if I can also add photographs to this response
    No you can't add attachments or any new evidence, nor (due to very limited space) can you copy their evidence and reply to it in another colour as you've done here.

    On the Portal you have 2000 characters (not even words!) so you can use short bullet points to demolish their evidence, only.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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