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  • FIRST POST
    • ian103
    • By ian103 27th Jun 18, 8:26 AM
    • 845Posts
    • 374Thanks
    ian103
    New heating system
    • #1
    • 27th Jun 18, 8:26 AM
    New heating system 27th Jun 18 at 8:26 AM
    We are in the processing of upgrading our heating system.We do not have access to mains gas. We currently use storage heaters which struggled in the bad weather this year (in fairness they are barely adequate in a mild winter).



    We are in the process of getting a quote for air to air, air to water and oil fired heating. The investment will be significant so we need to ensure we make the right decisions in all respects.


    Are there any other systems worth looking at?



    Is there any advice LOT20 electric heating?, it looks like this could be expensive to run?


    Are there any general pitfalls with the systems, each is being designed with how we use the property.
Page 1
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 27th Jun 18, 9:12 AM
    • 27,383 Posts
    • 13,401 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #2
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:12 AM
    • #2
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:12 AM
    Is there any advice LOT20 electric heating?, it looks like this could be expensive to run?

    Originally posted by ian103

    For those who haven't heard of LOT20 electric heating, this is the advertising blurb.


    https://www.electricradiatorsdirect.co.uk/news/lot-20-explained-what-does-this-mean-for-electric-heating/


    Well the good news is that all electrical heaters themselves are 100% efficient*. The heaters sold by the firm in the link have exactly the same efficiency as a 10 heater from Argos.


    * Efficiency here is defined as the heat output for a given electrical consumption.


    The thrust of the article is that 'control mechanisms' will improve 'efficiency' e.g. an electronic thermostat is better than a simple mechanical thermostat.


    Careful reading of the article will show the claims of savings are modest.
    • ian103
    • By ian103 27th Jun 18, 9:48 AM
    • 845 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    ian103
    • #3
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:48 AM
    • #3
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:48 AM
    Thanks Cardew, we had looked at upgrading the current storage heaters and making sure they were corretly sized, however it appears storage heaters that run on E7 are no longer manufactured, they have been affected by LOT20 and now have a daytime element that manitors / tops up the heat. To replace the heaters would have been a straightforward change, now we will require a second electric supply installing to each heater location, this will significantly increase the costs and make other options more viable.



    We got the impression that these would merely become expensive heaters as on E7 the daytime tarriff is high so there would be some benefit of the E7 charge but offset by the daytime top up.


    We have no personal experience / knowledge of the new style heaters but question if they will be cost effective.
    • potts8
    • By potts8 27th Jun 18, 11:59 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    potts8
    • #4
    • 27th Jun 18, 11:59 AM
    • #4
    • 27th Jun 18, 11:59 AM
    I've recently had a plumber round to quote for upgrading our system and I was keen to compare ASHP to oil. He does install both types however he warned me off from ASHP due to my house not being suitable.
    It's a 1980s build with part cavity wall insulation and 280mm loft insulation so I thought it would be ok but he strongly advised me to stay with oil.
    I'd be keen to hear your experience and if you receive a similar message...
    • ian103
    • By ian103 27th Jun 18, 2:21 PM
    • 845 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    ian103
    • #5
    • 27th Jun 18, 2:21 PM
    • #5
    • 27th Jun 18, 2:21 PM
    potts8, we live in a 1960s property, cavity wall insulated and a well insulated loft but a vented uninsulated underfloor void. We are also in an exposed location and get battered by wind in the winter, hence why the storage heater option isnt very successful. I'll let you know what the ashp and oil chap says, the air to air specialists were confident the system they are recommending would work.
    • WhoIsThat
    • By WhoIsThat 27th Jun 18, 6:53 PM
    • 113 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    WhoIsThat
    • #6
    • 27th Jun 18, 6:53 PM
    • #6
    • 27th Jun 18, 6:53 PM
    potts8, we live in a 1960s property, cavity wall insulated and a well insulated loft but a vented uninsulated underfloor void. We are also in an exposed location and get battered by wind in the winter, hence why the storage heater option isnt very successful. I'll let you know what the ashp and oil chap says, the air to air specialists were confident the system they are recommending would work.
    Originally posted by ian103
    That is not a logical concusion to reach, sorry.

    If your home, in particular the floor, is uninsulated and the whole house is getting battered by wind that makes you dismiss night storage heaters, then you will have similar issues with whatever heating system you propose to install.

    Treat the cause.


    As you said last year, your quote and associated details for an air source pump sounded too good to be true.
    Last edited by WhoIsThat; 27-06-2018 at 6:56 PM.
    • ian103
    • By ian103 27th Jun 18, 8:54 PM
    • 845 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    ian103
    • #7
    • 27th Jun 18, 8:54 PM
    • #7
    • 27th Jun 18, 8:54 PM
    Unfortunately there isnt an economic / straightforward fix to the underfloor void or we would have gone that route.



    The problem with our current storage heaters is that there is no way add additional charge and they are undersized.



    Conventional storage heaters are no longer available, new storage heaters use day and night tarriff electricity and currently available E7 tarriffs are not cheap.



    Storage heaters work in the correct instance unfortunately our current property isnt sutable. Prior to this house we were more than happy with storage heaters.



    My comment early June 2018 that our quote and associated details for an air source pump sounded too good to be true was based 2 units heating the whole house, the company we have now had to quote recommended / specified a sized to suit unit in each room, we are also looking at other options oil. air to water heating etc.
    • Owain Moneysaver
    • By Owain Moneysaver 27th Jun 18, 9:11 PM
    • 8,296 Posts
    • 9,219 Thanks
    Owain Moneysaver
    • #8
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:11 PM
    • #8
    • 27th Jun 18, 9:11 PM
    Thanks Cardew, we had looked at upgrading the current storage heaters and making sure they were corretly sized, however it appears storage heaters that run on E7 are no longer manufactured, they have been affected by LOT20 and now have a daytime element that manitors / tops up the heat. To replace the heaters would have been a straightforward change, now we will require a second electric supply installing to each heater location, this will significantly increase the costs and make other options more viable.
    Originally posted by ian103
    The daytime top-up elements are usually fairly low wattage and subject to doversity (unlike the night charge elements) so can be connected to ordinary socket circuits.

    Non- LOT20 storage heaters are not being manufactured, but they are still available and can still be installed. A lot of storage heater installations from the 70s and 80s when 17degC was considered warm are now undersized when trying to achieve the currently popular 20-21degC.
    A kind word lasts a minute, a skelped erse is sair for a day.
    • SaraR2018
    • By SaraR2018 28th Jun 18, 6:47 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    SaraR2018
    • #9
    • 28th Jun 18, 6:47 PM
    • #9
    • 28th Jun 18, 6:47 PM
    When learning about ductless mini-split heat pumps, many clients initially are excited about the energy efficiency offered by the installation of a unit. After they have some time to think about the advantages of ductless mini-split heat pumps, they may begin to wonder just how they work. After all, there is more than one home heating solution promising efficiency !!!8212; by understanding how heat pumps work, our clients can be confident that heat pumps offer superior energy efficiency relative to other home heating solutions.

    Ductless mini-split heat pumps extract heat from the outside air and bring it inside, warming the interior air. This may sound counter-intuitive at first, after all, it!!!8217;s cold outside in the winter months, when we want heat. How does the unit actually achieve this?

    The refrigerant in the heat pump is what makes it possible produce this effect !!!8212; if you have a kitchen refrigerator, then you already have experience with this substance. If you!!!8217;ve noticed the coils on the back of your refrigerator, imagine those as part of an exterior heat pump unit. As the outside air moves across these coils, any existing heat energy is attracted to the coil, because heat always flows from areas of high temperatures to areas of low temperatures. In essence, the refrigerant captures the heat.

    As the heat moves through the system, it warms existing liquefied gas, producing vapor. This vapor travels to the interior compressor unit, which has a fan. The fan blows the heat out into the room and, voila!, you have comfortable, enveloping interior heating. You can keep the system running continuously without worrying about sky-high energy bills, because the system works best as it stays constant.

    In the summer months, the system is reversible, meaning you get a fully-functional air conditioning (AC) unit for no additional cost. Forget unsightly window units or expensive central AC.
    • RobertJr
    • By RobertJr 28th Jun 18, 7:19 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    RobertJr
    Heat pumps use electricity in a seemingly magic way, to move heat from one place to another and upgrade the temperature of that heat in the process. Heat pumps seem like magic because they can extract heat from a place that!!!8217;s cold !!!8212; like Vermont!!!8217;s outdoor air in January, or underground !!!8212; and deliver it to a place that!!!8217;s a lot warmer.
    • Alter ego
    • By Alter ego 28th Jun 18, 7:33 PM
    • 2,407 Posts
    • 2,384 Thanks
    Alter ego
    Heat pumps use electricity in a seemingly magic way, to move heat from one place to another and upgrade the temperature of that heat in the process. Heat pumps seem like magic because they can extract heat from a place that!!!8217;s cold !!!8212; like Vermont!!!8217;s outdoor air in January, or underground !!!8212; and deliver it to a place that!!!8217;s a lot warmer.
    Originally posted by RobertJr
    Ah I see, I'll stick with gas CH. Thanks for the explanation, I didn't realise it is magic.
    Ignore me if you like, it's not the real me anyway.
    • pooch
    • By pooch 30th Jun 18, 10:00 PM
    • 741 Posts
    • 346 Thanks
    pooch
    Thanks Cardew, we had looked at upgrading the current storage heaters and making sure they were corretly sized, however it appears storage heaters that run on E7 are no longer manufactured, they have been affected by LOT20 and now have a daytime element that manitors / tops up the heat. To replace the heaters would have been a straightforward change, now we will require a second electric supply installing to each heater location, this will significantly increase the costs and make other options more viable.



    We got the impression that these would merely become expensive heaters as on E7 the daytime tarriff is high so there would be some benefit of the E7 charge but offset by the daytime top up.


    We have no personal experience / knowledge of the new style heaters but question if they will be cost effective.
    Originally posted by ian103
    Dimplex, as one example, still produce traditional storage heasters that operate on low rate electricity only.
    Do not confuse with their Quantum range of heaters.

    Other manufacturers of storage heaters are available.
    • ian103
    • By ian103 30th Jun 18, 10:22 PM
    • 845 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    ian103
    are you sure, other than the odd in stock heater they all seem to be smart heaters. ive checked elnur, creda, dimplex.
    • ian103
    • By ian103 2nd Jul 18, 9:34 PM
    • 845 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    ian103
    I've recently had a plumber round to quote for upgrading our system and I was keen to compare ASHP to oil. He does install both types however he warned me off from ASHP due to my house not being suitable.
    It's a 1980s build with part cavity wall insulation and 280mm loft insulation so I thought it would be ok but he strongly advised me to stay with oil.
    I'd be keen to hear your experience and if you receive a similar message...
    Originally posted by potts8

    Potts, the company who do both air to water and oil, said either option would work, really down to us. The oil would perhaps be quicker in warm up operation.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 3rd Jul 18, 10:34 AM
    • 3,616 Posts
    • 2,242 Thanks
    matelodave
    An air source heatpump (air-water) runs at a much lower temperature than an oil fired system so it's slower to react and will take a lot longer to reheat the house from cold. Running a heatpump at high temperatures (much above about 45 degrees) will decrease their efficiency and cost more.

    They aren't really suited to on/off operation say an hour or so in the mornings and 3-4 hours at night. They work better when running almost continuously at a low level and then setting the temp back a bit overnight and during the day if you don't need heating.

    We have a 140 sq.m bungalow, cavity wall insulation, double glazing and over 300mm of loft insulation. It's got underfloor heating (polypipe overlay) and an air source heat pump. The water flow temperature is between 30-40 degrees (weather compensated)

    It works for us as we are at home all day and require heating all day. If we shut it right down in the winter it can take two days for the house to get up to temperature again unless I over-ride the settings and increase the flow temp significantly.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    Look after our planet - it's the only one with beer
    • ian103
    • By ian103 8th Jul 18, 9:41 AM
    • 845 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    ian103
    OK, I think it safe to say we are totally confused as to the best way forward with a new heating system.
    The options are:
    1/ air to air, 2 outdoor units and 7 internal
    2/ air to air, 1 outdoor unit and 4 internal
    3/ air to water, heating only
    4/ air to water, water and heating
    5/ oil, heating only
    6/ oil, water and heating
    7/ elnur ecombi.
    Currently the hot water is supplied via an undersink water heater and we have an electric shower. This works fine for us,

    All options have their benefits / drawbacks so we are struggling to decide as its important to make the right choice as its a significant investment.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 8th Jul 18, 11:18 AM
    • 3,616 Posts
    • 2,242 Thanks
    matelodave
    We had a similar dilemma eight years ago when we move to our present place and 140m2 detached bungalow out in the Cambridgeshire Fens. Although it was 1980's buit it was in a bit of a sorry state and needed significant refurbishement - replacing the floors in the kitchen, bathroom and utility room, replacing or reboarding ceilings, a bit of remodelling , a new kitchen and bathroom.

    The existing heating was manky looking E7 storage heaters which the previous owner couldn't afford to run so she used portable LPG heaters.

    We decided to instal a poloypipe overlay wet underfloor heating system together with a Daikin Air Source Heatpump to provide our heating and hot water.

    It was expensive, but it's reasonably cheap to run - our total energy consumption, heating, hot water, cooking washing etc ect is around 7000kwh a year of which around 3000 - 3500 is heating.

    We get around 700 a year RHI for seven years (we've had four years worth so far) which will just about pay the cost of the ASHP.

    If you are interested, you can PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send you a write up with piccies just to give you some idea.

    It wont suit everyone, but we are at home all day and it works for us
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    Look after our planet - it's the only one with beer
    • jk0
    • By jk0 8th Jul 18, 11:27 AM
    • 2,363 Posts
    • 25,131 Thanks
    jk0
    I believe ground source works better in the cold months if you have the space & budget. (When it's very cold, the thing is drawing heat from a source above freezing, rather than a source below freezing.)
    • ian103
    • By ian103 12th Jul 18, 9:06 AM
    • 845 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    ian103
    We have now gone through the quotes, the preferred options are:-


    air to air with a small independant company, their proposal seems sensible or maybe even a little our requirements (7 internal floor consoles and 2 outdoor units)



    or



    air to water system with a much larger company, which looks good value, however Im concerned that the heat pump seems small compared to others Ive seen around. They've calculated the heat loss etc, the only error I can see is they missed the fact its a suspended ground floor. They have said this will only make a minor difference and there is plenty of capacity in the heat pump, I have also asked to add a couple of extra rads to suit our needs, again the heat pump will cope. The heat pump should be sized to provide hot water albeit we wont be installing that part.



    Is there a way to check their calculation as I really dont want to install a system that wont work properly.
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