Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • francolin
    • By francolin 22nd Jun 18, 11:12 AM
    • 17Posts
    • 8Thanks
    francolin
    Is it worth appealing this ticket
    • #1
    • 22nd Jun 18, 11:12 AM
    Is it worth appealing this ticket 22nd Jun 18 at 11:12 AM
    Hello,
    Just wondering if it's worth appealing a ticket my mate got for parking at a Supermarket. They parked up, and needed to use a cash machine which is not on site. This took less than 5 minutes. They then went straight into the store. When they'd left the store, They'd gotten a ticket saying that this is a customer car park only and that they were observed leaving the site. They told the store about this but they said that the car park land owner is not the Supermarket and that they can't intervene. There is a receipt for this visit. Should they appeal this ticket (Vehicle Control Services) and tell them exactly what happened? Would they be considered a non customer because they'd left the site? Or should they just ignore it and then appeal any potential County Court claim? Looking at the signage, there's nothing that says one cannot leave the site for any reason, or is it basically a given that they have to stay on site and go directly into the store?
    Last edited by francolin; 23-06-2018 at 1:59 AM.
Page 1
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 22nd Jun 18, 11:17 AM
    • 8,870 Posts
    • 9,223 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #2
    • 22nd Jun 18, 11:17 AM
    • #2
    • 22nd Jun 18, 11:17 AM
    It is always worth challenging a private parking ticket but you need to be properly informed with current information before starting in order to avoid the several glaring pitfalls in your OP - which will result in near-certain failure and only serve to make the PPCs life easier if they do proceed to court.

    Please start by reading the Newbies Sticky carefully before doing anything and follow the guidance there to the letter.

    And please edit your OP, to avoid revealing who was driving - Walls have ears etc...
    • francolin
    • By francolin 22nd Jun 18, 12:45 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    francolin
    • #3
    • 22nd Jun 18, 12:45 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd Jun 18, 12:45 PM
    Just to be clear, I do mean appealing directly to the ticket issuer (Vehicle Control Services). They have given an appeal period of 21 days (which is almost up). I am just worried that if an appeal is made directly to them, telling them exactly what happened, it's giving them too much information?
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 22nd Jun 18, 1:01 PM
    • 3,178 Posts
    • 4,877 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #4
    • 22nd Jun 18, 1:01 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Jun 18, 1:01 PM
    Just to be clear, I do mean appealing directly to the ticket issuer (Vehicle Control Services). They have given an appeal period of 21 days (which is almost up). I am just worried that if an appeal is made directly to them, telling them exactly what happened, it's giving them too much information?
    Originally posted by francolin

    No you don't tell them exactly what happened which you would know if you followed the advice in the "NEWBIES" thread!!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jun 18, 7:01 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,391 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 22nd Jun 18, 7:01 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Jun 18, 7:01 PM
    Just to be clear, I do mean appealing directly to the ticket issuer (Vehicle Control Services). They have given an appeal period of 21 days (which is almost up). I am just worried that if an appeal is made directly to them, telling them exactly what happened, it's giving them too much information?
    Originally posted by francolin
    Another option is to ignore them as it's an IPC firm.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 23rd Jun 18, 8:23 AM
    • 9,996 Posts
    • 9,811 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #6
    • 23rd Jun 18, 8:23 AM
    • #6
    • 23rd Jun 18, 8:23 AM
    If this got to court, many judges might consider this an unfair term in a consumer contract, or a breach of one's human rights.

    What would happen if one's new Borsalino is blown away, does one just buy a new one, or chase after it.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Jun 18, 8:38 AM
    • 19,399 Posts
    • 30,641 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 23rd Jun 18, 8:38 AM
    • #7
    • 23rd Jun 18, 8:38 AM
    Or should they just ignore it and then appeal any potential County Court claim?
    I can't see VCS having much appetite to take another 'leaving the site' case to court.

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=16231)

    But you can't guarantee against stupidity.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 23rd Jun 18, 8:44 AM
    • 9,996 Posts
    • 9,811 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 23rd Jun 18, 8:44 AM
    • #8
    • 23rd Jun 18, 8:44 AM
    Leaving site was identified as a scam by Members of the HOC in this video

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 23rd Jun 18, 9:01 AM
    • 3,178 Posts
    • 4,877 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #9
    • 23rd Jun 18, 9:01 AM
    • #9
    • 23rd Jun 18, 9:01 AM
    Private parking companies only source of income from such sites is by way of motorists making mistakes, over staying, parking out of bay etc., the 'leaving site' scam is another little idea they have develop to extend their T&C's to con as many people as possible.


    One case went to court which so incensed the judge he summoned the owner of the PPC to court and told him he might need a toothbrush, this scam has not seen the inside of a court since!!


    If not leaving site is not on the signs how can they enforce that?


    They usually say for customers only which they were!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 23rd Jun 18, 9:17 AM
    • 9,996 Posts
    • 9,811 Thanks
    The Deep
    It usually is on the signs FJ, which Is why I say that it may be an unfair term. How can it be a BOC to pop over the road to a cash machine?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 23rd Jun 18, 9:21 AM
    • 3,178 Posts
    • 4,877 Thanks
    fisherjim
    It usually is on the signs FJ, which Is why I say that it may be an unfair term. How can it be a BOC to pop over the road to a cash machine?
    Originally posted by The Deep

    Exactly, I wouldn't put it past them to include the "no leaving site" T&C because the cash machine is across the road!
    • francolin
    • By francolin 3rd Jul 18, 11:33 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    francolin
    In a bit of a dilemma. I have tired contacting the Supermarket to see if they could get this cancelled. They have eventually replied, took about 6 days. What they have said is that if I show them a copy of the receipt, and the PCN (as a scan online), they may be able to get the land department to help. However, they have said that they contacted the store and confirmed it's customer parking only, and if anyone is seen leaving the site they will get fined. The PCN says "observed leaving the site". Should I just scan what they want, send it to them and hope for the best? Or should I explain to them, since this is the Supermarket themselves, that the person did leave to use a cash machine so that they could then spend money at your store? Or is it likely that I may give information away to Parking company by doing so?
    Personally, I would have no problem dealing with a Parking company. The real problem for me, is that the registered keeper would really not be able to make it to court for various reasons if it came down to it, and from what I've read it seems that this particular company is quite happy to do just that. I'm really tempted to just pay it at this point. I know it's bang out of order, but I can't risk a potential court appearance. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by francolin; 03-07-2018 at 11:39 AM.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 3rd Jul 18, 11:38 AM
    • 3,268 Posts
    • 5,475 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Does the sign actually say you should not leave the site? If it doesn't then it is a defence

    IMHO you should appeal to the supermarket, explain why you left the site and draw attention to the difference between the legitimate interest to prevent non-shoppers parking in comparison to clients like you with a reason to leave (and come back/shop).

    A lot of these technical breaches can be seen off when measured against legitimate interests.

    Edit: If you want to give VCS a kicking at the same time you might add that 'there is a great deal of public anxiety about alleged unfairness and injustice inflicted by parking operators that are part of the International Parking Community. Such is the anxiety that Parliament are debating the replacement of the current IPC code that allows VCS to indulge in harassing the supermarket's clients.'
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 03-07-2018 at 11:43 AM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • francolin
    • By francolin 3rd Jul 18, 1:04 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    francolin
    As it happens, I don't have my phone on me, but from memory the sign said something like Customers may park their vehicle here whilst on site. I don't know how robust that is?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Jul 18, 1:59 PM
    • 19,399 Posts
    • 30,641 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    As it happens, I don't have my phone on me, but from memory the sign said something like Customers may park their vehicle here whilst on site. I don't know how robust that is?
    Originally posted by francolin
    'something like' is not robust at all! Check it out on your phone, then come back.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jul 18, 2:02 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,391 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If you want to give VCS a kicking at the same time you might add that

    'there is a great deal of public anxiety about alleged unfairness and injustice inflicted by parking operators that are part of the International Parking Community. Such is the anxiety that Parliament are debating the replacement of the current IPC code that allows VCS to indulge in harassing the supermarket's clients.'
    I like that, IamEmanresu. Very measured but clearly relevant to a retailer complaint.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • francolin
    • By francolin 3rd Jul 18, 4:20 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    francolin
    Just reading through the email they sent me again, and some parts of it are peeing me off. This is what I am thinking of writing back. I don't know how good it is. I would be very grateful if someone could read through it and offer advise or corrections. Also, I don't know whether I should send it to the person who emailed it to me, or the social media team, since they are seemingly more willing to engage.


    Thank you for your reply concerning my issue with a false PCN that was issued at one of your stores. Since the email you used to reply to me is a no reply address, I assume no one monitors it so I am writing to you again. For your convenience, I have copied and pasted your email to me, and my original email to you below so that you can reference it.

    I am going to be straightforward with you. You say that you contacted the store (I assume this is PLACE, XYZ) and to quote:

    "The store have confirmed that the car park is for the supermarket shoppers only an "if a customer is seen going off site then a parking fine will be issued." [sic]

    How exactly was confirmation of this given? What confirms it? Who confirmed it? How is a customer supposed to know this? The only way you could communicate this information, is via signage. There is absolutely no signage on that site that says, or otherwise confirms "if a customer is seen going off site then a parking fine will be issued." There is no mention of any "fines" whatsoever for that matter.
    I assume you spoke to the store manager. The same store manager who has already demonstrated his incompetence, and utter contempt of me [this bit is true, but very specific to me so I won't mention it here]. Since you are from Customer Care, I would like to know that my initial complaint/request to you was twofold. One, was to cancel this ridiculous, baseless PCN, and my second complaint was with regards to your store manager that treated me extraordinarily terribly. What do you have to say with regards to that issue?

    As to the abject vagueness of "The store have confirmed that the car park is for supermarket shoppers only an if a customer is seen going off site then a parking fine will be issued." [sic],
    You cannot expect any customer using the store to know this without explicit signage. There is none. Please refrain from saying things that are unsubstantiated. Someone confirming it is of absolutely no use without clearly written signage. Without clearly written signage, there is nothing to confirm. I stress again, there is absolutely no signage confirming this.

    Are you implying that you are facilitating the operations of a Private Parking Company to target your customers for unverifiable, alleged technical infractions without any way of those customers knowing? Are you trapping your customers? Do you realise how serious the implications of this would be? For such a simple issue, this is getting alarmingly scandalous.
    The actions of the store in question have been nothing short of outrageous.

    I would like to draw your attention to the fact that there is a great deal of public anxiety about alleged unfairness and injustice inflicted by parking operators that are part of the International Parking Community (which VCS, the charge notice issuer is a part of). Such is the anxiety that Parliament are debating the replacement of the current IPC code that allows VCS to indulge in harassing the supermarket's clients.

    On the day the alleged infraction took place [date time], I parked at your store, as a customer, as I have done countless times before with the intention of doing some shopping. Upon realising I had no cash, I crossed the road to use the cash machine so that I would have money to spend at your store. This is not unusual or unreasonable behaviour for a customer. Your interests lie with trading with the customer. Cash is required for this to happen. I have a receipt to demonstrate that after withdrawing cash from the machine, I then came back and spent it at your store. This is definitely not the same as abusing the customer car park (which is presumably why you allow a third party to issue PCNs). So what interest would you have in penalising a patron of your store, a patron that has used your stores for many years quite happily? There is none.
    You must intervene and cancel this PCN that has been issued as a desperate attempt by the Parking Company to capitalise unfairly on the needs of your customers. It is in nobody's interest to pursue this charge excepting the Parking Company.
    I have uploaded a receipt and copy of the PCN as requested.
    Since this clearly beyond the scope of the Customer Care team and store management give me the email and telephone number of the lands team so that I can deal with them directly. [Don't know if I should add this]
    Thank you.

    Should I add a link in there somewhere to where it shows that leaving site claims are basically just a scam? Any good refrences that someone could kindly point out to me? Thanks folks.
    Last edited by francolin; 03-07-2018 at 4:53 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jul 18, 11:41 AM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,391 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I wouldn't include this, but the rest is a good complaint:

    Since this clearly beyond the scope of the Customer Care team and store management give me the email and telephone number of the lands team so that I can deal with them directly. [Don't know if I should add this]
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • francolin
    • By francolin 10th Jul 18, 9:21 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    francolin
    After sending that, I just got a letter today from the parking mob, and it says that the charge notice was issued correctly (I think they may have told them about the cash machine thing) but after speaking with their client, and as a gesture of goodwill, they're willing to settle for 10. Any opinions? I completely disagree on principle of course, but I can make an awful lot of stress and hassle disappear for a tenner.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 18, 9:36 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,391 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Why not pay VCS the stupid tenner, then (afterwards) hit them with a SAR?!

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5849784

    and contact the DVLA as per the info in that link.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,751Posts Today

8,250Users online

Martin's Twitter