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  • FIRST POST
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 17th Jun 18, 11:23 AM
    • 21Posts
    • 7Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    Court pending after paying fine!
    • #1
    • 17th Jun 18, 11:23 AM
    Court pending after paying fine! 17th Jun 18 at 11:23 AM
    Hello all,

    So to sum up I live on an estate that has private enforcement by UKCPM. When I first moved in I was not told by anyone where I could or couldn't park (aside from the obvious such as in another person's parking bay, double yellow lines etc). I had NEVER parked on a double yellow area, on a paved area etc but where others were parking and displaying their permits. I then over the course of the first 2 weeks of moving in received numerous fines. I had (with photo evidence) appealed this to UKCPM but they disagreed and fined me regardless despite showing them their own signage which was directly next to where I had parked (not on double lines, or paved area and clearly displaying my permit that all others were showing) that said you can only park on non-double yellow lined areas etc whilst showing a valid permit (which I did and have pictures proving this).

    After this I then received subsequent letters from Debt Recovery Plus offering me a discount of paying 125 as opposed to 149 including 'final settlement' letters which contained 3 'fines' as the letter stated that I had at one point gained 3 separate fines all on ONE day lol despite the original fines I had received never stated that.

    Fast forward nearly a year later and Gladstones sent me a 'Total amount outstanding' letter of 149. It clearly states that the total amount of fines I owe to UKCPM is 149 and that if I pay this then I shall avoid any future court action. As this was dragging on I decided to pay it and be done with this situation as I have not been fined since living in the same area almost 2 years on.

    Fast forward 10 months on from paying this 'final' fine (and have an email receipt along with bank statement confirmation) I have now been told I owe nearly 700 including court charges etc as of the issue date of 11th June 2018.

    The Gladstones letter is the ONLY letter I have ever received and it clearly states the 'TOTAL AMOUNT OUTSTANDING' and I have not received anything else from Gladstones before or since and this is why I thought by paying this, it would be over.

    What would be the best way to go about this?

    Thank you all very much in advance.
Page 2
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 18th Jun 18, 2:54 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    ^^ +1 ^^. Very good point from Castle.

    Email:

    ccrt@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    Give your full name, current postal address, postal address on your V5C (logbook) and your vehicle's VRM

    They will reply via snail-mail, usually within a few days.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Cheers guys will do so tonight. Anything else I can do in the meantime? Surely a Judge will look at this and just throw it out? It's sickening I've been taken to court over this crap.

    My defence shouldn't be difficult should it?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Jun 18, 12:38 AM
    • 61,622 Posts
    • 74,516 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    A Judge will be unlikely to even see it until nearer to/on the day of the hearing.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Jun 18, 8:37 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    ...unles syou pay for an applicaiton to strike the claim, costs 100
    Not usually a good idea.
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 19th Jun 18, 9:38 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    Well I've done the acknowledgement of service, issue date was the 11th so I don't really know what to do now. I have all my docs in hand so what would be the next step for me?

    Thank you all.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Jun 18, 11:27 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You have been told already
    Nebwies thread
    Post 2
    READ IT

    then

    READ IT AGAIN

    Then bookmark it and before ANY question, READ IT AGAIN to see if it answers it.

    Hint: Defence. Given even the claim form tells you that, this should not be a shock.
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 19th Jun 18, 12:35 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    Thank you

    I shall update this thread with my response for proof reading.

    Cheers to all.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Jun 18, 1:23 PM
    • 61,622 Posts
    • 74,516 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You need to show us your defence draft, unless you plan to lose by default.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 19th Jun 18, 1:36 PM
    • 2,353 Posts
    • 3,929 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You will do the usual defence points:
    - no contract between driver and claimant, parking rights already existed between you and landlord (get landlord and/or agent to confirm in writing your tenancy comes with parking rights and what those rights are)
    - in the alternative, if there was a contract, it wasn't breached because driver parked in a place where parking was permitted by the signage (ie not on yellows or in someone else's allocated space) and displayed a permit
    - in the alternative, if there was a contract and driver breached it, the Claimant has already accepted 149 payment in full and final settlement of it. Further, by their own signage (ie the contract) they were not entitled to issue more than one pcn in a 24 hour period, so 2 of the 3 of the pcns are not enforceable).

    Do you have a keeper defence? or have you already outed yourself as driver?

    I have not checked POFA, but if you have a keeper's defence and didn't out yourself as driver, doesn't POFA have something in it about no more than 1 pcn in any 24 hour period is enforceable? I have this imprinted in my brain somewhere, but may be wrong. Other regulars may be able to answer that.
    -
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 8th Jul 18, 8:24 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    Hi guys,

    Thank you so much for all the amazing advice!

    I have drafted my defence as follows:

    The claim from UKCPM through Gladstones Solicitors clearly!
    breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable!
    Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c))!
    and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs!
    3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2.

    My letter of 5th September 2016 requested information from UKCPM.!
    To date I have not received a response to my questions!
    specifically asking where I can and cannot park.

    The letter from Gladstones Solicitors in the amount of 149 which!
    was paid in full within 14 days as instructed with a receipt as!
    proof of payment. It then states that by doing so I would !!!8220;thereby!
    avoid the consideration of any future court action and any!
    increase in the amount claimed.!!!8221; No date indicating the incident!
    was specified anywhere on this correspondence.

    UKCPM should not have issued proceedings without complying with!
    that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the!
    Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court!
    and to ask the court to stay the claim.

    My tenancy agreement does not include anything where to park or!
    where not to park. I was handed two permits; one for me as a!
    resident and the other for visitors which I have always displayed.!
    All I was ever told was not to park on double yellow lines or!
    designated parking bays. The letting agency, Haart Hornchurch was!
    asked and confirmed the above.

    I do not have answers to the following:
    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of!
    POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car!
    was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and!
    have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being!
    claimed)
    5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they!
    assert authority to bring the claim
    6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font,!
    height at which displayed)
    9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what!
    that represents and how it has been calculated.

    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a)!
    and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to!
    comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

    I therefore invite the court to strike out the claim, due to no!
    cause of action nor prospects of success.

    The facts and information in this defence are true and the!
    defendant is not liable for the sum claimed, nor any sum at all.

    I must submit this by midnight! Hope it is OK.

    Again MASSIVE thank you to you all.

    Cheers.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jul 18, 8:28 PM
    • 61,622 Posts
    • 74,516 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That's not a defence - needs writing in the third person, like all the other UKCPM defences you see here. We have at least a dozen posted here since June.

    Also there's a template residential defence in the NEWBIES thread, by Johnersh (a solicitor).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 8:38 PM
    • 9,270 Posts
    • 9,499 Thanks
    KeithP
    I must submit this by midnight!
    Originally posted by F1neF1ghter
    Why is that then?

    On 19th June you told us the Issue Date on your Claim Form is 11th June and you have done the AoS.

    Therefore you have until 4pm on Monday 16th July 2018 to file your Defence.

    That's more than a week away.

    Spend the next few days reading as many Defences as you can.
    C-M has given you some direction on that.

    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as described here:

    1) print your Defence
    2) sign it
    3) scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4) send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5) just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-07-2018 at 8:44 PM.
    .
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 8th Jul 18, 8:51 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    Hi thanks so much. Where are you getting the extending period from? I cannot see it on the Justice gov website, just says 28 days from the issue date (11/06 in my case) That would be today?

    Thanks!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 8:58 PM
    • 9,270 Posts
    • 9,499 Thanks
    KeithP
    Hi thanks so much. Where are you getting the extending period from? I cannot see it on the Justice gov website, just says 28 days from the issue date (11/06 in my case) That would be today?

    Thanks!
    Originally posted by F1neF1ghter
    No it doesn't.

    It says 28 days from date of service.

    Date of service is deemed to be five days after date of issue of the claim.

    11 June + 5 + 28 = Saturday 14th July.

    If the due date is a non-working day then one is allowed until 4pm on the next working day = Monday 16th July.
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-07-2018 at 9:01 PM.
    .
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 8th Jul 18, 9:08 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    No it doesn't.

    It says 28 days from date of service.

    Date of service is deemed to be five days after date of issue of the claim.

    11 June + 5 + 28 = Saturday 14th July.

    If the due date is a non-working day then one is allowed until 4pm on the next working day = Monday 16th July.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Thank you. You seem to have much more knowledge than me but I cannot find anywhere that says about the additional 5 days!

    On the justice.gov site it states:

    Method of service Deemed date of service
    1. First class post (or other service which provides for delivery on the next business day) The second day after it was posted, left with, delivered to or collected by the relevant service provider provided that day is a business day; or
    if not, the next business day after that day.

    Sorry for my paranoia but I need to get this right
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jul 18, 9:11 PM
    • 61,622 Posts
    • 74,516 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    We know what we are doing, honestly, it's a max of 33 days but I wouldn't push it.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 9:46 PM
    • 9,270 Posts
    • 9,499 Thanks
    KeithP
    It's in the Money Claim Online (MCOL) - User Guide for Claimants.

    On page 14 of that document it says:
    How long does the defendant have to respond to my claim?

    The court will send out a claim pack to each defendant once the claim has been issued and allows 5 calendar days from the date of issue for the service of the claim. Therefore the 'date of service' is the 5th calendar day after issue. Please note, if you have served separate particulars of claim then this may affect the deemed date of service (as above).

    The defendant has 14 calendar days from the 'date of service' to file a response. If the last day for filing the response falls on a day that the court is not open (i.e. a weekend or public holiday), the court will allow the next full working day for a response. The defendant can extend the time to respond to 28 calendar days by filing an acknowledgment of service (AOS).
    It can surely be found elsewhere.
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-07-2018 at 10:14 PM.
    .
    • F1neF1ghter
    • By F1neF1ghter 8th Jul 18, 9:54 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    F1neF1ghter
    Again thank you guys and sorry for all my newbieness!!

    I have read everything and have my draft below. I will obviously add things like reg plates upon submission on the Money Claim Online website.

    Preliminary
    1. The Particulars of Claim lack specificity and are embarrassing. The Defendant is prejudiced and is unable to prepare a full and complete Defence. The Defendant reserves the right to seek from the Court permission to serve an Amended Defence should the Claimant add to or expand his Particulars at a later stage of these proceedings and/or to limit the Claimant only to the unevidenced allegations in the Particulars.

    2. The Particulars of Claim fail to refer to the material terms of any contract and neither comply with the CPR 16 in respect of statements of case, nor the relevant practice direction in respect of claims formed by contract or conduct. The Defendant further notes the Claimant's failure to engage in pre-action correspondence in accordance with the pre-action protocol and with the express aim of avoiding contested litigation.

    Background
    3. It is admitted that at all material times the Defendant is the registered keeper of vehicle registration mark XXZZZ which is the subject of these proceedings. The vehicle is insured with [provider] with [number] of named drivers permitted to use it.

    4. It is admitted that on [date] the Defendant's vehicle was parked at [location]

    5. It is denied that the Defendant was the driver of the vehicle. The Claimant is put to strict proof.!
    5.1. The Claimant has provided no evidence (in pre-action correspondence or otherwise) that the Defendant was the driver. The Defendant avers that the Claimant is therefore limited to pursuing the Defendant in these proceedings under the provisions set out by statute in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA")
    5.2. Before seeking to rely on the keeper liability provisions of Schedule 4 POFA the Claimant must demonstrate that:
    5.2.1. there was a 'relevant obligation'; either by way of a breach of contract, trespass or other tort; and
    5.2.2. that it has followed the required deadlines and wording as described in the Act to transfer liability from the driver to the registered keeper.
    It is not admitted that the Claimant has complied with the relevant statutory requirements.!

    5.3. To the extent that the Claimant may seek to allege that any such presumption exist, the Defendant expressly denies that there is any presumption in law (whether in statute or otherwise) that the keeper is the driver. Further, the Defendant denies that the vehicle keeper is obliged to name the driver to a private parking firm. Had this been the intention of parliament, they would have made such requirements part of POFA, which makes no such provision. In the alternative, an amendment could have been made to s.172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. The 1988 Act continues to oblige the identification of drivers only in strictly limited circumstances, where a criminal offence has been committed. Those provisions do not apply to this matter.

    Authority to Park and Primacy of Contract
    6. It is denied that the Defendant or lawful users of his/her vehicle were in breach of any parking conditions or were not permitted to park in circumstances where an express permission to park had been granted to the Defendant permitting the above mentioned vehicle to be parked by the current occupier and leaseholder of [address], whose tenancy agreement permits the parking of vehicle(s) on land. The Defendant avers that there was an absolute entitlement to park deriving from the terms of the lease, which cannot be fettered by any alleged parking terms. The lease terms provide the right to park a vehicle in the relevant allocated bay, without limitation as to type of vehicle, ownership of vehicle, the user of the vehicle or the requirement to display a parking permit. A copy of the lease will be provided to the Court, together with witness evidence that prior permission to park had been given.

    7. The Defendant avers that the operator's signs cannot override the existing rights enjoyed by residents and their visitors and (ii) that parking easements cannot retrospectively and unilaterally be restricted where provided for within the lease. The Defendant will rely upon the judgments on appeal of HHJ Harris QC in!Jopson v Homeguard Services Ltd!(2016) and of Sir Christopher Slade in!K-Sultana Saeed v Plustrade Ltd![2001] EWCA Civ 2011. The Court will be referred to further similar fact cases in the event that this matter proceeds to trial.

    7. Accordingly it is denied that:
    7.1. there was any agreement as between the Defendant or driver of the vehicle and the Claimant
    7.2. there was any obligation (at all) to display a permit; and!
    7.3. the Claimant has suffered loss or damage or that there is a lawful basis to pursue a claim for loss.

    Alternative Defence - Failure to set out clearly parking terms
    8. In the alternative, the Defendant relies upon!ParkingEye Ltd v Barry Beavis!(2015) UKSC 67 insofar as the Court were willing to consider the imposition of a penalty in the context of a site of commercial value and where the signage regarding the penalties imposed for any breach of parking terms were clear - both upon entry to the site and throughout.
    8.1. The Defendant avers that the parking signage in this matter was, without prejudice to his/her primary defence above, inadequate.!
    8.1.1. At the time of the material events the signage was deficient in number, distribution, wording and lighting to reasonably convey a contractual obligation;!
    8.1.2. The signage did not comply with the requirements of the Code of Practice of the Independent Parking Committee's ("IPC") Accredited Operators Scheme, an organisation to which the Claimant was a signatory; and
    8.1.3. The signage contained particularly onerous terms not sufficiently drawn to the attention of the visitor as set out in the leading judgment of Denning MR in!J Spurling v Bradshaw![1956] EWCA Civ 3
    8.2. The Defendant avers that the residential site that is the subject of these proceedings is not a site where there is a commercial value to be protected. The Claimant has not suffered loss or pecuniary disadvantage. The penalty charge is, accordingly, unconscionable in this context, with!ParkingEye!distinguished.

    9. It is denied that the Claimant has standing to bring any claim in the absence of a contract that expressly permits the Claimant to do so, in addition to merely undertaking parking management. The Claimant has provided no proof of any such entitlement.

    10. It is denied that the Claimant has any entitlement to the sums sought.

    11. It is admitted that interest may be applicable, subject to the discretion of the Court on any sum (if awarded), but it is denied that interest is applicable on the total sums claimed by the Claimant.

    12. Further the defendant has already paid n online 150.50 in respect of this claim on 06/04/2017 for which a receipt was received. In addition the letter from the claimant's solicitor which clearly states quote - !!!8220;thereby avoiding the consideration of any future court action and any increase in the amount claimed.!!!8221;

    STATEMENT OF TRUTH
    I confirm that the contents of this Defence are true.

    Thank you again
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 9:59 PM
    • 9,270 Posts
    • 9,499 Thanks
    KeithP
    I have read everything... ...upon submission on the Money Claim Online website.
    Originally posted by F1neF1ghter
    No.

    Please do not try and file your Defence via the MCOL website.
    Post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread tells you that and explains why.

    Please re-read post #31 above - only written less than two hours ago - surely you've not forgotten it already. .


    8.1.2. IPC = International Parking Community.
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-07-2018 at 10:54 PM.
    .
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 8th Jul 18, 10:28 PM
    • 1,779 Posts
    • 2,248 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    ipc code of practice at time of incident https://theipc.info/resources/brandings/brandmedia_2_Code-of-Practice.pdf read carefully , about multiple tickets for "same offence"
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • nigelbb
    • By nigelbb 9th Jul 18, 8:01 AM
    • 2,025 Posts
    • 2,818 Thanks
    nigelbb
    I have not checked POFA, but if you have a keeper's defence and didn't out yourself as driver, doesn't POFA have something in it about no more than 1 pcn in any 24 hour period is enforceable? I have this imprinted in my brain somewhere, but may be wrong. Other regulars may be able to answer that.
    -
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    You are wrong POFA contains no such clause however UKCPM must purchase keeper details from the DVLA for each & every "offence" so even if they claim three parking "offences" in one day they must purchase keeper details three times.
    Last edited by nigelbb; 09-07-2018 at 8:09 AM.
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