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    • jollyroger10
    • By jollyroger10 16th Jun 18, 4:45 PM
    • 24Posts
    • 9Thanks
    court claim received gladstone
    • #1
    • 16th Jun 18, 4:45 PM
    court claim received gladstone 16th Jun 18 at 4:45 PM
    Hello members of MSE forum,

    I've received a Claim Form from Gladstones Solicitors on behalf of UK Car Park Management Limited for a PCN received two years ago.

    They're charging £160 for PCN - rounded to '£179.94 including £19.94 interest' + £25 Court Fee + £50 legal representative's fee.

    I did the wrong thing at the time and ignored the PCN and subsequent letters completely.

    The residential estates where i lives car park is a mixture of a car permit car park spaces, (monitored by ukpcm) and parking spaces belonging to a housing association whose spaces require no permit. I am a resident of the housing association but still part of the same residential estate.

    The PCN is issued based on no permit being displayed. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle.

    The car park where I live is overcrowded, on this particular occasion the car was temporarily parked in a visitors space in the private ukcpm monitored part of our residential address until a space was once again available in our permitted parking area.

    I have read through the NEWBIES sticky thread (thank you so much for providing this it has answered so many questions and I am feeling confident about starting my draft defence letter) but what i would like some guidance on is if i can use the arguments and points i have found as a resident of the estate or not.

    I have looked in my tenancy agreement which states the following on parking
    "You may use designated parking spaces on our land when parking your vehicle."
    So although the land in which the visitors space is (where car was parked at time of PCN) is 2 meters from our HA allocated spaces and housing associations land, it is were the ukcpm signs start and has a V painted on the space so belongs to the land of the private residential parking.

    The residential estates name is included in my address aswell as the permit only spaces address given in ticket. I am not sure if it comes down to within the estate who owns which land and spaces or if i can still use the residential defence as joint landowners or that its within 2 meters of my address and usual space. In addition it being a visitors space so not belonging to an individual home.

    If not any advice on what angle to best base my defence from would be greatly appreciated.
    I have read many threads and draft letters but as i am unsure of my situation which arguments apply to my case.

    I have followed step one of the small claims newbies advice and have applied for the extension for 28 days on the money claim web page successfully.

    Many thanks in advance for any help i really appreciate the time that goes into helping people like myself who have no idea on these sorts of things and have learnt so much already.
Page 3
    • jollyroger10
    • By jollyroger10 5th Nov 18, 2:09 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Thank you so much for all your help.

    My court bundle is well presented and I have followed advice by doing a contents page and sections that are separated by dividers.

    Received Claimants Bundle today so will scan and black out personal info, so I can show you their argument when i get a chance.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by jollyroger10; 05-11-2018 at 5:42 PM.
    • jollyroger10
    • By jollyroger10 9th Nov 18, 8:08 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Hi there,

    Iv attached the following link with the claimants witness statement and evidence they plan to use against me on the 21st November 18.
    Any help with opposing there points would be appreciated as would like to put together my skeleton argument.

    sorry think iv probably posted too much of thier bundle so appreciate there will only be certain pieces you are interested in reading. just didn't want to miss anything.

    thank you

    ps: i have added my own yellow circles on there site map the two small ones are my address and where charge was issued. the larger photo i have circled is off my property. The other two photos are taken from somewhere else on the estate I never drive past or is near my property i don't know where about on the estate those photos are even taken from.

    also i have blotted out all personal info.
    Last edited by jollyroger10; 09-11-2018 at 8:17 AM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Nov 18, 9:46 AM
    • 5,007 Posts
    • 6,118 Thanks
    You will have reliaed by now this is their 10 pence template WS
    Its awful

    Their numbering

    5) rebut this bypointing out they COULD have sent further paritculars, as thius is expressly *allowed*, and even without sending further their lclaim only used XXX of the 1080 characters allowed. You point out it failed to identiey a cause aof action - which the claimant does not deny - and does not indicate how the supposed debt arose.

    7) This assuems the driver is the defendant. This i an assertion and is not a fact known to the witness. This should be struck out.

    Go throug - any assertion / assumption made without evidence is challenged. Summarise each type eg. para ..... and xxxxx they assert the defendant is the driver yet proide no proof

    8) Did you really ignore the LBA? If NO then you need to point this out! This would be an easy lie - give date of response, copy of it etc.

    10) It is up to the claimant to prove their claim, they have asserted but not proven. Obviously if you HAVE proof you can point this out, and if you HAD supplied them with proof prior to court this owuld also be good (Im not readin g back through the thread here, just giving you things to think about)

    11) You attack by stating regulations have to benewfit the landowner, they havent confirmed the regulations were brought in by the landowner, that they had the required 75% approval to alter leases in this way, that the changes were to the benefit and not detriment etc.

    13) Beavis was about a commercial car park with a commercial reaosn to ensure turnover. To claim this claim has naything remotely related to Beavis is the claimant misleading the court

    They are also making arguments here, introducing leements NOT included in their claim. They will do this repeatedoly so you should ask the court to STRIKE OUT this WS, as it is NOT a WS but a statement of claim that should have been made when the claim was initiated.

    14) The charges ARE pena;l unless they meet the tests laid out in Beavis for them NOT to be/ Thi sis not a fact, this is an assertion made by the claimant yet agakm

    15) Did they include random debt collector etc costs? If so point out these are not suitable etc. Anything saying "legal costs" other than the £50 to file the claim?

    16) I presume you cna rebut th8is well enough? If you DONT know how they dont comply, its a little late For example, "f" is incpomplete - it must be starting with the day after that on which the notice is given. That they have omitted that is misleading to the court.

    18) That isnt what the case actually concludes, and yo ucan easily find rebuttals for this. You point out that as they have no authority to make the contract they have no power to enforce the contract. This is again an attmept by the cliaant to mislead the court

    20) That contract aplies to the driver, and not tot the keeper. As they appear to be claimaing against hte Keeper using POFA , they are aware that POFA STRICTLY loimits them to the amount on the NtK and nothing extra - no "damages" and certainly not hte £60 stated in 22). You will need the reference to this.

    23) The additional sums cannot be left vague, they must be specified, and in nay case a Keepr defendant cannot be liable for them under POFA, whic hthe claimant well knows

    24) Again every time they say "defendants breach£" point out it was the DRIVERS alleged breach, and this conflaiton of temrs indicates iether the cliamant wilfully misleading the court, in an attmept ot construe liability wherenone exists, or is an error showing the claimants "witness" was nothing of the sotr.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Nov 18, 9:56 AM
    • 5,007 Posts
    • 6,118 Thanks
    Agreement - that confirms that NO PARKING IS OFFERED
    If th4ere is no offer of parking there can not possibly be a contract for pakring.
    In 2.3 it only allows them to use legal action agasinst drivers, not anyone else. as such gthe Claimant has acted outside of their authority and has no Standing to bring this claim. They knew this before starting this legal action, as this is THEIR contract THEY produced.

    Was it signed by someone who works for the landholder?

    Sign - CONTRACTUAL UCERTAINTY. "may" incur additional. Cannot be enforced as a term (as it also does not specify amounts) notwithstanding that under POFA you have no liability anyway!
    Its a terible sign. Doesnt actually offer anything to anyone.

    That map is hilarious. It ony shows some of thesupposed sighs. If you can show some of those signs ARENT there (the blue dots) then that helps. It also isnt signed, has no install dates, isnt itslef dated to show when it was produced, etc.

    NTK; Yep this isnt compliant. Wrong period. Thats why in their WS they have OMITTED to the court that their notice did NOYT contain the preoscribed wording. Point this out in big bold letters they have misled the court and this adds to their unreaosnable behavour. this also mentions a different samount - £49, not £60.

    LBA - the typical GS crap LBA. It still does not sttae any cause of action, in fact the only specific information to your case it contrains is oin the box, and is even more sparse than the PoC.
    • jollyroger10
    • By jollyroger10 10th Nov 18, 6:53 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Wow ,
    There’s so many good points you have given!
    I will go through them all this weekend and start to put together my skeleton argument.

    I really appreciate the time taken to reply as I am so new to this, thank you so much
    • jollyroger10
    • By jollyroger10 14th Nov 18, 11:24 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Hi there,

    sorry if this is a silly question I am just finishing up my skeleton argument am I right in thinking i must email a copy to the court before the hearing next week?

    Also iv read in other threads of gladstones discontinuing the case, how would i know if the have done this for my case? is it if i receive a letter before trying to settle ? Then would I get informed by the court if they were to discontinue?

    thank you
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Nov 18, 1:18 PM
    • 13,708 Posts
    • 14,997 Thanks
    sorry if this is a silly question I am just finishing up my skeleton argument am I right in thinking i must email a copy to the court before the hearing next week?
    Originally posted by jollyroger10
    Yes, and you must send a copy to the Claimant too.

    Don't forget a Costs Schedule.
    • jollyroger10
    • By jollyroger10 14th Nov 18, 1:36 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    ok thank you,

    I didn't realise that i had to send claimant skeleton argument also so thanks for that.

    So should i be expecting gladstone skeleton argument also?

    Hearing is a week today so wanted to send by the end of the week, wasn't sure if they need it by a particular day before hearing though.

    Was going to tackle my costs schedule next, i just take this on the day though don't I?

    thanks again.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th Nov 18, 1:43 PM
    • 5,007 Posts
    • 6,118 Thanks
    No, they wont bother with a skeleton. Its optional.
    No, send costs schedule with the skellie. Then the claimant cannot object

    If they discontinue they HAVE to notify you, in advance. If they fail to do so and you turn up, ak for the hearing to be turned into a Costs Hearing where you want to discuss their unreoasnable behaviour.

    Make sure your costs are split into;
    1) Ordinary costs always claimable - half days pay OR loss of leave (take proof!) capped at £95. Mileage and parking or publics transport costs. Estimate if needed, provide receipt on day
    and IF you are going to claim unreasonable behaviour costs under CPR27.14(2)(g) then make sure you bullet point their unreasonable behaviour (you will know what this is by now, its detailed on most threads!) and then lcaim, at £19 per hour

    2) time to write dedfence, research it, time towrite witness statement, time to go to site to take photos, etc.
    Costs of printing etc your bundle.
    • StarGazer1
    • By StarGazer1 14th Jan 19, 4:46 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Hey, I was wondering what the outcome of all of this was for you? My bf is in a v. similiar situation so would be useful to have an update. Many thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Jan 19, 5:24 PM
    • 22,580 Posts
    • 35,535 Thanks
    Some people, despite lots of free advice from others, giving of their own time voluntarily, don't seem to have the courtesy to come back to update those who helped so much.

    The OP seemed quite keen to post on here when he wanted our help - over 5 months of it .....!

    Let us know if he updates you, but I wouldn't hold your breath!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • jollyroger10
    • By jollyroger10 15th Jan 19, 7:04 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Hi There,
    I have been meaning to update, and was always going to do so, to be honest I was so shocked and disappointed after the hearing I put off coming on here for awhile to write about it all!

    Most people seem to have huge success so I think I seem to be a one off, I worried my personal experience may put people off fighting back , which is anouther thing I didnít want to do as these companyís are crooks and I still get angry that I lost and think everyone should challenge!

    Umkomass you are completely right there has been so much advice and time given which I am very grateful for that I would never have not updated but apologies it has taken so long , and needed a reply on the thread to prompt me to do it !

    Anyway ... so turned up on the day nice and early the legal representative for UKPCM did approach me as they heard my partner use my name, he asked if I would like to talk before and come to an agreement, which after following advice from others I declined as I didnít want to pay anything so thereís no point.

    Waited about an hour and a half to be called in by judge, even the legal representative was getting confused as to why it was taking so long and we were all fed up.

    Finally got called in by the Jude he said he had spent the time really reading through the evidence and all the witness statements would we like to add anything. I talked through my case bundle and just re highlighted all my points again. The legal representative didnít have anything to add, I think he asked me to just clarify a few factual things like dates and address. The judge then started talking really fast and then said ďI feel that the claimant has very clearly set out that there in control of the space and that there was a permit needed to parkĒ he also agreed that going by the case of beavis that UKPCM sign also was acceptable!Ē Which I couldnít believe as itís nothing like the parking eye sign , and it wasnít even commercial area it was residential (all this had been highlighted and said in my bundle) so I still to this day donít see how the judge agreed with them on this and not me ! The whole hearing was about 15 mins.

    Anyway the original claim was for £250 and I ended up having to pay £204 the Judge allowed everything accept the £50 legal representative fee.

    So I just felt disappointed as I could of settled with Gladstoneís for £150 saved myself £54 plus not lost a whole days money (Iím self employed) which is a substantial amount, not to mention what I spent on ink , binders , stationary so it looked professional , got photos printed and the time I spent on it and got quite stressed about as the whole legal thing is not something that comes naturally to me !

    But that is the update , and I do really appreciate all the help from everyone. Obviously in my case it wasnít strong enough or I got unlucky with the judge who knows !

    It was county court in Guildford Surrey, Iím not sure if I can say the judge ?! Obviously if I can Iím happy to share that also.

    Many thanks again
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jan 19, 7:59 PM
    • 68,703 Posts
    • 80,947 Thanks
    Awww, I think this one is an example of the DJ lottery, and you got the bad Judge.

    Sorry to tell you that we have seen 3 cases won in a day at Guildford before, all v UKCPM and around the time of your hearing, but obviously not the same Judge and I am so sorry you drew the short straw of a clueless one.

    We do see very, very few cases lost, but the last one we heard about was also about a Judge who had made up their mind, wrongly, before the D even started to speak.

    That's the main danger even to the most practised person who has been to court before, and there's nothing you could have done differently. But you did cost them a lot more than £204.

    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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