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  • FIRST POST
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 10th Jun 18, 5:38 PM
    • 27Posts
    • 6Thanks
    akzy1990
    Ace Security FIRST APPEAL ARGH!
    • #1
    • 10th Jun 18, 5:38 PM
    Ace Security FIRST APPEAL ARGH! 10th Jun 18 at 5:38 PM
    Hello everyone!!! I have been reading and reading and reading and its amazing to see such success!! My brain is frazzled now and with so much information to be taken in, i have been overwhelmed. I have read all about ACE and Gladstones appeals (i am at that stage too for 3 more from ACE but I have not responded to them at anytime so will post a thread at some point). I have appealed many fines and had good success however these people really really get under my skin, and I want to make it perfect!! I really want to shut them up. This was the letter I sent to appeal, and also what they sent back. As my emotions are getting the better of me, I just want some clarification and cool heads as I don't want to over do it and say the wrong thing. My appeal is as follows.......:

    You issued me with a parking ticket on ……. but I believe it was unlawfully issued. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following:


    • There was insufficient signage

    The car park in question has no clear signage to explain what the relevant parking restrictions are for RESIDENTS of the parking space. This means no contract can be formed with the landowner and all tickets are issued unlawfully. In addition, the parking space is private and paid for directly to the landlord. Nowhere does it state in the tenancy agreement, which was signed by the residents of the parking space, that you have the right to issue tickets to residents who pay for their parking. We pay for the parking space and these are the requirement in our legally binding document, Tenancy Agreement.

    • The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable

    The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner. In my case, the £100 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner as the land owner is already being paid the correct sum for the parking. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.

    • Mitigating circumstances

    There are mitigating circumstances to explain why the vehicle was parked where it was and the charge should be waived for this reason. Please see attached evidence, which is an e-mail confirming that the car parked has been looked into and is registered property of a resident.


    Finally, I would like to ask you to prove your assertions of issuing tickets. I would like to ask for either a copy of the contract that binds yourselves with the landowner to issue tickets, which is my right in an appeal, or offer a witness statement as an alternative to the contract itself, that is signed by the landowner as per BPA Code of Practice 22.16b.

    If you choose to pursue me, please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

    ......:

    After reading some info on the threads I know the commercially justifiable point is weak.

    Please find below the between our landlord and myself.

    Dear Landlord

    I hope all is well at the office and in general.

    I am e-mailing you the logbook of the car registered to .... in order to request a parking permit for our parking space. Also I sould like to thank you for contacting Ace Securities to hold off for at least a week. Thank you for taking the time to complete this request.

    ........:

    Dear Registered Owner,

    Just to confirm that Ace Security are aware & have logged your new cars registration for 1 week.

    Regards

    ........:

    After the one week a ticket was issued. Can I still do it??? Can I still appeal with the hope of winning???

    Hope someone can help, thanks everyone
    Last edited by akzy1990; 19-09-2018 at 10:01 PM. Reason: .
Page 3
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 1st Oct 18, 11:25 AM
    • 9,290 Posts
    • 12,211 Thanks
    beamerguy
    looks like I was a being naive, I haven't received any messages from anyone so nothing to report on that, but thinking twice I just realised what was being asked of me. If there is any advice the regulars could do to support then let me know, otherwise I will continue my hard work in reading as many posts on here and learning and moulding.
    Originally posted by akzy1990
    Everyone does expect you to your homework where you
    will mostly find all your answers.

    If you don't understand something then of course
    come back here
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 2nd Oct 18, 8:31 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,181 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    my guess is that you are the tenant of a buy-to-rent landlord
    @Eljayjay2

    No need to guess as the OP states it is a Housing Association.

    @akzy1990

    Did you get a copy of Pace v Noor (who had a lot more tickets than you and it looks to be a similar case) and Pace v Lengyl which will also be relevant to your Witness Statement / Skeleton Argument.

    You have a win here if you use the two cases above.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 02-10-2018 at 8:56 AM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 2nd Oct 18, 8:45 AM
    • 10,567 Posts
    • 10,401 Thanks
    The Deep
    HAs have rental properties, shared equity properties, and fully owned properties. They treat all of us with the same lack of respect.

    However, HAs are answerable to The Ombudsman and, usually, The Charity Commissioners.
    Last edited by The Deep; 02-10-2018 at 8:51 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 5th Oct 18, 3:10 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Any Changes???
    Preliminary

    
1. The Particulars of Claim lack specificity and are embarrassing. The Defendant is prejudiced and is unable to prepare a full and complete Defence. The Defendant reserves the right to seek from the Court permission to serve an Amended Defence should the Claimant add to or expand his Particulars at a later stage of these proceedings and/or to limit the Claimant only to the unevidenced allegations in the Particulars.

    

2. The Particulars of Claim fail to refer to the material terms of any contract and neither comply with the CPR 16 in respect of statements of case, nor the relevant practice direction in respect of claims formed by contract or conduct.

    3. The Claimant’s solicitors are known to be a serial issuer of generic claims similar to this one, with no due diligence, no scrutiny of details nor even checking for a true cause of action. HMCS have identified over 1000 similar poorly produced claims and the solicitor's conduct in many of these cases is believed to be currently the subject of an active investigation by the SRA.
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 5th Oct 18, 3:12 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Any Changes???
    

Background

    4. It is admitted that at all material times the Defendant is the registered keeper of vehicle registration mark ????? which is the subject of these proceedings.

    
5. It is admitted that on ????? the Defendant's vehicle was parked at ?????

    
6. The Defendant was the driver of the vehicle.

    
Authority to Park and Primacy of Contract

    
6. It is denied that the Defendant or lawful users of his/her vehicle were in breach of any parking conditions or were not permitted to park in circumstances where an express permission to park had been granted to the Defendant permitting the above mentioned vehicle to be parked by the current occupier and leaseholder of ?????, whose tenancy agreement permits the parking of vehicle(s) on land. The Defendant avers that there was an absolute entitlement to park deriving from the terms of the lease, which cannot be fettered by any alleged parking terms. The lease terms provide the right to park a vehicle in the relevant allocated bay, without limitation as to type of vehicle, ownership of vehicle, the user of the vehicle or the requirement to display a parking permit. A copy of the lease will be provided to the Court, together with witness evidence that prior permission to park had been given.
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 5th Oct 18, 3:13 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Any Changes???
    

7. The Defendant avers that the operator signs cannot (i) override the existing rights enjoyed by residents and their visitors and (ii) that parking easements cannot retrospectively and unilaterally be restricted where provided for within the lease. The Defendant will rely upon the judgments on appeal of HHJ Harris QC in!Jopson v Homeguard Services Ltd!(2016) and of Sir Christopher Slade in!K-Sultana Saeed v Plustrade Ltd![2001] EWCA Civ 2011. The Court will also be referred to Pace Recovery And Storage Limited v Mr N. The Court will also be referred to further similar fact cases in the event that this matter proceeds to trial.

7. Accordingly it is denied that:

    7.1. there was any agreement as between the Defendant or driver of the vehicle and the Claimant
    7.2 the claimant and defendant entered into such a contract 

    7.3 there was any obligation (at all) to display a permit; and!

    7.4 the Claimant has suffered loss or damage or that there is a lawful basis to pursue a claim for loss.
    7.5 it was a valid and enforceable contract


    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 5th Oct 18, 3:53 PM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,181 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    All good except for #3 which should really be binned.

    But you'd be better to separate out the facts e.g. I was the driver, from the arguments which should really be in a separate document called a Skeleton.

    This stage is for the narrative - I was a tenant - and the evidence- here is my lease. The arguments come when you have your narrative and their narrative side by side. Then you compare the two and write it up no more than 3 days before.

    See if you can do a timeline too e.g when I moved in there was no PPC. x years afterwards they introduced XXX but this was to control outsiders and not tenants etc. There was a problem with ???? but never with the tenants.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 05-10-2018 at 3:59 PM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • 63,872 Posts
    • 76,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yep, change #3 to the standard defence point about the Claimant not being the landowner and having no authority (see any other bargepole defence).

    And add the usual stuff at the end objecting to the abuse of process of adding all sorts of admin/legal fees add-ons...

    EDIT

    Hang on - still confused by this thread, is this the WS?

    Where's the evidence and case law?

    WHERE IS YOUR TENANCY AGREEMENT?


    What you've written there is a defence but you are way past that stage.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-10-2018 at 4:02 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 6th Oct 18, 6:25 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,181 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Defence went in on 12th August (see #27). Hearing is set for mid November (See #38) and a WS has to be in by 19th October (see #38)

    So this is a WS which requires a narrative and the evidence.

    Just tell the story from your side something which you have already done in some of the earlier postings such as contacting the HA and them not responding showing you have made an effort. A WS is just your take on the situation and has the supporting material with it (the lease) so a judge can understand what has happened.

    There is always the temptation to be too clever with these but they are really very simple as it just comes down to the lease and not the signs.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 06-10-2018 at 6:29 AM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Oct 18, 9:18 PM
    • 63,872 Posts
    • 76,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Show us the draft WS (your story) and evidence.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 16th Oct 18, 12:49 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Sorry for late reply
    SO SO SO SORRY for late reply everyone. my IP address was blocked and I have been trying to resolve it with the admin team for a while now. It has been so frustrating so again sorry for the late reply. I have posted my WS below, thank you everyone!
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 16th Oct 18, 12:50 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Witness Statement
    WITNESS STATEMENT

    NAME OF CASE:

    CLAIM NUMBER:

    FULL NAME OF WITNESS:

    ADDRESS OF WITNESS:

    1. I am a tenant of ????? and I have been living there since I moved in on the ??/??/????. I make this statement in support my defence of disputing the penalty charge notices.
    2. In ???? I moved into the property and in our tenancy agreement we were allocated a parking bay which is paid for weekly. This is shown in the tenancy agreement provided.
    3. Some years ago a letter was sent to the address by the housing association saying that there were many issues with non-residents parking in bays and that the claimant would be hired to help residents of the property. At some point later down the line, the housing association then supplied a parking permit to the address which they stated had to be placed on the vehicle parked in the bay.
    4. At no point was a new agreement or documentation signed to confirm these changes.
    5. The car that held the permit was involved in a car crash and the car was written off, the permit along with it.
    6. I then continued to park the new car in the space as normal.
    7. On the ??/01/2018 a ticket was issued on the vehicle and the housing association was contacted to ask for the reason tickets were issued for a parking bay used by the tenant. They stated that a permit was needed and it would be sent out. After a dispute of why a permit was needed, they said that the case would be resolved.
    8. Subsequently tickets were issued on ??/01/2018, ??/02/2018, ??/05/2018, ??/07/2018.
    9. On the ??/05/2018 I contacted the housing association to make them aware that the situation had gotten out of hand as I had been diagnosed with depression and anxiety on ??/02/2018 due to several factors including debt and that this situation was worsening my health. This is shown on the medical certificate provided.
    10. I expressed this to them prior the ticket issued on ??/05/2018, however I do not have a date of when this took place.
    11. On ??/05/2018 I sent in my logbook to get a permit as getting a permit was advised to me as being the best thing to do in my condition so that matters would not go out of hand.
    12. I received a response on the ??/05/2018 confirming the claimant was aware that the permit was to be sent out and my car registration details were logged for a week. This is shown on the e-mail provided.
    13. After this, nothing arrived and a ticket was issued on ??/05/2018.
    14. I called up on ??/06/2018 and spoke to ?????, to complain, and was told I needed to fill out a form which was going to be sent in the post. This never arrived.
    15. I raised a complaint on the ??/07/2018 via e-mail complaining that I was receiving tickets for a parking permit that was not being provided and a parking permit that my tenancy agreement did not accommodate. In addition, to the fact I hadn’t received the complaint forms and why I was being ignored.
    16. They received my complaint via post on ??/07/2018 and stated that the there would be a maximum of 15 days SLA for a response in regards to my complaint. Please see the complaint letter attached.
    17. I did not receive a response in the post. I did get to speak to a member of staff until ??/08/2018.
    18. I then sent an e-mail on the ??/09/2018 and ??/09/2018 requesting an urgent response to my complaint. A letter was also sent signed for on the ??/09/2018 to request the complaint to be raised to stage 3.
    19. I had no response until ??/09/2018 whereby a meeting was arranged for the ??/10/2018 between my representative ????? and my housing association.
    20. On this day a permit was handed to my brother. ????? who held a meeting with my representative ????? also questioned whether or not I was searching online on how to tackle the claimant online and that the claimant has contacted her to ask for details in regards to my standing on the parking fines and what actions I would be taking, however she was unable to give any information due to data protection. She was also asked how the claimant knew the day we moved into the property and she stated that they did not hand over that information.

    
STATEMENT OF TRUTH

    
I believe the facts stated in this witness statement are true
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 16th Oct 18, 1:38 PM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,181 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Looks straightforward and puts the debacle in perspective. The comment "she was unable to give any information due to data protection" is particular nonsense. They made no attempt to protect your rights under the lease. In addition, the issue was non-tenants so why are they allowing Ace/Pace to go after tenants.

    Get a list of costs and send it with your WS. You can claim £19/hour for your research plus other costs.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 18th Oct 18, 2:04 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Thanks!!!
    Thank you for the response! Its greatly appreciated everyone! I will be sending it off soon so I will make those necessary changes. Thanks a lot everyone for your help and guidance. I will be sure to let EVERYONE KNOW how it all goes!!!
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 18th Oct 18, 3:44 PM
    • 3,921 Posts
    • 4,720 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    DId you also put your costs scheudle in, as suggested?
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 19th Oct 18, 9:55 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Alll included!!!
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Oct 18, 12:53 PM
    • 3,921 Posts
    • 4,720 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    WHat was your schedule?
    SHow it here.
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 10th Nov 18, 12:20 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    Hello Everyone, I have had my trail date and unfortunately I did not win the case. I felt it was biased but there was one issue that I didn't even take note of that was the main problem, which is entirely my fault. The tenancy agreement was only for the "tenants" and the judge stated that the tenancy agreement is in my parents names. On one of the pages it states I am a resident and I believed this to mean I was a tenant. The other points were that I used the "internet" to support me and the judge kept banging on about that and interrupting me. I tried to refer the judge to previous cases and I was shut down and told not to do that. I was told that the piece of paper that was sent out by the housing associaiton super seeded everything, although after looking at a previous case that sort of letter was unacceptable. In addition, the judge stated that we had a permit and did not dispute it at the very beginning. I have another one coming up so will do my best with it as I didn't sit right with me the way the case was handled. But if there is any opinions and advice on how to continue it would be great.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Nov 18, 3:01 PM
    • 10,567 Posts
    • 10,401 Thanks
    The Deep
    In my opinion, POFA has very little place in "own space" claims. The lease gives you contractual rights, which a PPC interferes with at their peril.

    Personally, I think that, if you are the driver, it is always better to say so, it gives you a far stronger hand in court.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • akzy1990
    • By akzy1990 11th Nov 18, 11:39 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    akzy1990
    I agree
    from this first time experience, it almost seems like you have to have your judge on your side in the first place as she was on the other side from the offset
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