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  • FIRST POST
    • casper82
    • By casper82 7th Jun 18, 2:59 PM
    • 17Posts
    • 7Thanks
    casper82
    PCN @ High Point Village - Hayes & Harlington, London
    • #1
    • 7th Jun 18, 2:59 PM
    PCN @ High Point Village - Hayes & Harlington, London 7th Jun 18 at 2:59 PM
    Hello all,

    I read trough the NEWBIES forum, but still hasn't found the answer I am looking for.

    Long story short, I drove through the "High Point Village - Hayes & Harlington" and picked up my pregnant wife (who had been waiting there for me already), and so I never had to park there, just made a 180 degree turn (because the old roundabout was closed), and during the180 degree turn I stopped, my pregnant wife got into the car, and I drove away (I had stopped there for around 15-20 seconds).

    - Next thing, I receive a PCN from PCM (Parking Control Management UK ltd, Company No: 4395994)
    - I appealed and lost of-course.
    - I have opened a Standard Appeal with IAS (BUT HAVE NOT SUBMITTED IT YET), however It says that "You have until 05/07/2018 23:59 to submit your appeal" which is end of today.

    I did tick the following 2x boxes when opening the Standard Appeal:
    1) You reported that you were the driver and the registered keeper at the time the parking charge was issued.
    2) You reported that you are being held liable for the parking charge.

    - After reading through all the posts at this forum, I am not sure if I have screwed up by opening the Standard Appeal with IAS and acknowledging the above two points...

    Any advice before the end of today ? I did read in the NEWBIE forum that if this is PCM, I may try to submit a case to IAS... however I am not sure if I had done the correct thing to acknowledge the above two points.

    Regards,
    Last edited by casper82; 07-06-2018 at 5:04 PM. Reason: typo
Page 2
    • casper82
    • By casper82 25th Jun 18, 4:53 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    Below is the response from PCM to my IAS appeal:





    PCM has been contracted to monitor & enforce a parking enforcement scheme in this area
    since 10th November 2009. This site is private land and is managed and operated by Parking Control Management.
    The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) has been issued in accordance with this parking management scheme. The signage in the area is clear
    and informs motorists of the termsagreed to by parking. By parking in this manner, the driver agrees to pay the charge stated.
    On the 24/04/2017 VRM was observed to be parked in breach of the advertised terms and conditions.

    Parking Attendant recorded that the vehicle was parked outside of a marked bay.
    The Parking Charge Notice was issued via post on the
    Currently, the station is being developed as part of the London Cross rail upgrades; therefore the roadway is closed to station
    traffic with no drop off facilities available. This is signposted at the entrance to the roadway (see site information below).
    Limited parking is available within the bays but stopping/ waiting or drop & collection outside of marked bays is not permitted at any time.

    In answer to the points of appeal;
    1.
    The appellant claims no parking occurred. The Oxford English Dictionary defines !!!8220;to park!!!8221; as !!!8220;to bring (a vehicle that
    one is driving) to a halt and leave it temporarily!!!8221;. The vehicle was brought to a halt and left in the position for a period of
    time, therefore parked. Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the legislation which governs the issue of parking charges) does
    not define what is meant by !!!8220;parked!!!8221;. There is however, an implied definition,
    whereby a charge may only be issued to a vehicle that is !!!8220;stationary!!!8221; (please refer to subset 4b)
    !!!8211; which can be defined as !!!8220;not moving!!!8221;. The vehicle was photographed to be !!!8216;not moving!!!8217;
    !!!8211; it remains in the same position over a period of time. This constitutes parking and as
    such the charge was issued, in accordance with the signage on site.
    Further to this, the signage itself (that which forms the basis of the contract) defines what is meant by parking in the
    context of the terms where it clarifies !!!8220;this includes stopping, waiting & drop & collection!!!8221;

    2.
    The national Rail website is not under control of the operator nor do we work for national rail. A drop off area has not
    been provided since the start of the Crossrail upgrades.

    3.
    I appreciate that the appellant was collecting his pregnant wife. Parking is acceptable on this site within the marked
    parking bays (all of which were available on the day in question)

    4.
    There are clear signs at the entrance to the roadway stating that parking conditions apply and advising that the roadway
    is private, Parking is permitted within the confines of the bay for a period of 20 minutes. It is a common, simple, and
    clear term that, when parking in a private car park, vehicles should park within bays and the driver was given clear
    notice of it. The driver was given the opportunity to park for free and chose not to.

    5.
    This point is not relevant.

    6.
    As previously advised the turning circle & drop off point has been closed for three years.

    7.
    The vehicle appears to have stopped in the access road in order to drop/ collect a passenger. It was stationary whilst passenger entered/exited the vehicle.
    If the vehicle had been merely performing a manoeuvre or in a line of traffic, the vehicle would not have been photographed. Signage in the area is clear
    !!!8211; stopping and waiting or drop & collection is not permitted outside of marked bays. The vehicle was parked; therefore the driver agreed to pay the charge.

    8.
    A patrol Officer observed and photograhed the vehicle. A postal charge was then issued.

    9.
    Under the KADOE system, the operator may seek keeper details with a !!!8220;reasonable cause!!!8221;. The operator maintains
    that this !!!8216;reasonable cause!!!8217; was satisfied under Reason Code 00CH !!!8211; the vehicle breaches the terms and conditions of
    the signage of a private car park.

    10.
    Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot
    be read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before
    making the decision to park. The operator would expect any driver parking on private land, to park in bays where they
    are present. However, the driver made no attempt to do this. The signs at the entrance make it clear this is private land
    and restrictions apply & as does the large wording painted on the roadway. The photographs make it clear the
    driver made no attempt to consider the terms; therefore they are deemed to have notice of them.

    11.
    The operator is fully contracted to enforce parking controls at the location. It will be noted that the charge arises out of a
    relationship in contract and that we are the principal (not an agent) in the contract. This site has been audited by the
    IPC a nd a copy of the landowner!!!8217;s authority has been provided to them as part of the audit process. However, whilst we
    maintain that we do, in fact, have the authority of the landowner to operate upon this site (being the principal in the
    contract); the existence of this document has no legal bearing on the contract with the motorist. See Vehicle Control
    Services v HMRC [2013] EWCA Civ 186, para 22 per Lewison LJ.As this is a commercially sensitive document, and is irrelevant to the issues at hand,
    this is not provided as evidence in this appeal.

    PIC1: drive.google.com/open?id=1BITPQ8dlHWthRlrLBdMXToXyXh03qOZM
    PIC2: drive.google.com/open?id=1772jyvDaNGbPqr2IZzrolaZQ-bemUkCG


    Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 25th Jun 18, 5:08 PM
    • 8,579 Posts
    • 8,445 Thanks
    KeithP
    They cite The Oxford English Dictionary definition of 'to park' as 'to bring (a vehicle that one is driving) to a halt and leave it temporarily'.

    Throw that back at them and point out that you didn't leave the vehicle, temporarily or otherwise.
    .
    • casper82
    • By casper82 25th Jun 18, 8:50 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    thanks for the suggestion, will do
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 25th Jun 18, 10:23 PM
    • 37,183 Posts
    • 83,891 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    The judge in this case defines stopping versus parking. Jopson Vs Homeguard, case number 9GF0A9E

    http://nebula.wsimg.com/f6d657adf7df70d27e1dd285688b5701?AccessKeyId=4CB8F 2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

    The relevant parts are 19 - 20.

    19 The appellant's case could also be put in another way. The purported prohibition was upon parking, and it is possible to draw a real and sensible distinction between pausing for a few moments or minutes to enable passengers to alight or for awkward or heavy items to be unloaded, and parking in the sense of leaving a car for some significant duration of time.

    20 Neither party was able to direct the court to any authority on the meaning of the word park. However, the Shorter Oxford Dictionary has the following: To leave a vehicle in a carpark or other reserved space and;To leave in a suitable place until required. The concept of parking, as opposed to
    stopping, is that of leaving a car for some duration of time beyond that needed for getting in or out of it, loading or unloading it, and perhaps coping with some vicissitude of short duration, such as changing a wheel in the event of a puncture. Merely to stop a vehicle cannot be to park it; otherwise traffic jams would consist of lines of parked cars. Delivery vans, whether for post, newspapers, groceries, or anything else, would not be accommodated on an interpretation which included vehicles stopping for a few moment for these purposes.


    You should quote the judge's comments back to the scammers. and IAS assessor. This is the law speaking, not some bunch of unregulated scammers
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 26-06-2018 at 8:52 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • casper82
    • By casper82 26th Jun 18, 4:30 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    Thank you Fruitcake,



    That's perfect !
    • casper82
    • By casper82 26th Jun 18, 8:26 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    OK, so I submitted my "Appellant's Response", and the operator responded within 7 minutes, which is quite fast...


    Any ideas as to what to repond with to these scammers, regarding their BS reply ?


    Here is my "Appellant's Response" in green colour, and below is the operators, in red colour:


    In answer to the points of Operator:
    1: The appellant's case could also be put in another way. The purported prohibition was upon parking, and it is possible to draw a real and sensible distinction between pausing for a few moments or minutes to enable passengers to alight or for awkward or heavy items to be unloaded, and parking in the sense of leaving a car for some significant duration of time. The Shorter Oxford Dictionary has the following: To leave a vehicle in a carpark or other reserved space and;To leave in a suitable place until required. The concept of parking, as opposed to stopping, is that of leaving a car for some duration of time beyond that needed for getting in or out of it, loading or unloading it, and perhaps coping with some vicissitude of short duration, such as changing a wheel in the event of a puncture. Merely to stop a vehicle cannot be to park it; otherwise traffic jams would consist of lines of parked cars. Delivery vans, whether for post, newspapers, groceries, or anything else, would not be accommodated on an interpretation which included vehicles stopping for a few moment for these purposes.
    2: The operator wrote: !!!8220;The operator does not accept that predatory tactics were used.!!!8221;
    The appellant: How is it possible then, that the operator PCM issued a Parking Charge Notice, when the reality the appellant had not left the vehicle, and the timestamps in the photos provide a sum of total 21 seconds, including the car driving away ! As per operator!!!8217;s quotation: !!!8220;The Oxford English Dictionary defines !!!8220;to park!!!8221; as !!!8220;to bring (a vehicle that one is driving) to a halt and leave it temporarily!!!8221;!!!8221;. The car HAD NOT been left temporarily by the appellant! How is this not a PREDATORY tactic as per the IPC Code of Practice @ section 14 Predatory Tactics:
    !!!8220;14.1 You must not use predatory tactics to lure drivers into incurring parking changes. Such instances will be viewed as a serious instance of non-compliance and will be dealt with under the sanctions system as defined in schedule 2 of the Code.!!!8221;



    Lot of BS from the operator:
    The definition of the verb parked is to !!!8216;Bring (a vehicle that one is driving) to a halt and leave it temporarily, typically in a car park or by the side of the road!!!8217;

    The driver argues that as the vehicle remained attended he did not !!!8216;leave !!!8216;the vehicle unattended, it does not meet the definition. The driver is defining the verb !!!8216;to leave!!!8217; as to go away from. The operator would suggest the verb !!!8216;to leave!!!8217; as cause to be in a particular state or position or allow or cause to remain!!!8217;

    Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the legislation which governs the issue of parking charges) does not define what is meant by !!!8220;parked!!!8221;. There is however, an implied definition, whereby a charge may only be issued to a vehicle that is !!!8220;stationary!!!8221; (please refer to subset 4b) !!!8211; which can be defined as !!!8220;not moving!!!8221;. The vehicle was photographed to be !!!8216;not moving!!!8217; !!!8211; it remains in the same position over a period of time. This constitutes parking and as such the charge was issued, in accordance with the signage on site.

    Further to this, the signage itself (that which forms the basis of the contract) defines what is meant by parking in the context of the terms where it clarifies !!!8220;this includes stopping, waiting & drop & collection!!!8221;.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Jun 18, 2:51 PM
    • 59,976 Posts
    • 73,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The driver is defining the verb 'to leave' as to go away from. The operator would suggest the verb 'to leave' as cause to be in a particular state or position or allow or cause to remain'
    Hahaha!!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Castle
    • By Castle 28th Jun 18, 3:40 PM
    • 1,866 Posts
    • 2,532 Thanks
    Castle
    Refer them to Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 with regards to terms which may have different meanings;-
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/69/enacted
    • casper82
    • By casper82 8th Jul 18, 8:31 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    Hi,


    just an FYI, I submitted response at IAS to the operator, referring to the above article.

    The status of my case is currently "Awaiting Adjudication".


    I will report back after IAS's decision.


    Regards,
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Jul 18, 9:03 PM
    • 18,842 Posts
    • 29,660 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I will report back after IAS's decision.
    I'll save you the trouble. 'Appeal dismissed!' (with some disparaging remarks).

    Hope I'm wrong, but it will be the first time this year ..... haha
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • casper82
    • By casper82 9th Jul 18, 5:52 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    Hi Umkomaas,


    I am not giving it too much hope after reading experiences of others with IAS. If IAS declines my appeal, I will pay the fine to PCM in full... lol


    ...
    ...
    ...


    no way I am paying, not even a freaking penny... unless an actuall court judge instructs me to...



    Regards,
    • casper82
    • By casper82 22nd Jul 18, 9:51 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    The adjudicator made their decision:

    The Appellant should understand that the Adjudicator is not in a position to give legal advice to either of the parties but they are entitled to seek their own independent legal advice. The Adjudicator!!!8217;s role is to consider whether or not the parking charge has a basis in law and was properly issued in the circumstances of each individual case. In all Appeals the Adjudicator is bound by the relevant law applicable at the time and is only able to consider legal challenges and not factual mistakes nor extenuating or mitigating circumstances. Throughout this appeal the Operator has had the opportunity consider all points raised and could have conceded the appeal at any stage. The Adjudicator who deals with this Appeal is legally qualified and each case is dealt with according to their understanding of the law as it applies and the legal principles involved. A decision by an Adjudicator is not legally binding on an Appellant who is entitled to seek their own legal advice if they so wish. The Hayes development has been ongoing for some time now, and looks likely to continue for some time into the future. I have dealt with numerous appeals regarding this site. At the entrance to the site there is a large sign on the left stating that there is no stopping, waiting, dropping or collecting outside of marked bays. The roadway is marked with large lettering NO DROP & COLLECTION and PRIVATE ROAD. The bays along the side are clearly marked and are specifically for waiting, dropping or collecting as they have a time limit of 20 minutes. The photographic evidence shows the appellant's vehicle stopped outside of a marked bay, albeit very briefly, and a passenger getting into the vehicle. This is in contravention of the terms. As much as one may have sympathy with the appellant regarding the short length of time the vehicle was on this site, nevertheless the parking charge was properly issued. This appeal is therefore dismissed.





    Do I have a chance if I leave it as it is and wait for the letter from court ?


    Thanks,

    Casper
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • 18,842 Posts
    • 29,660 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    My post #30 to a tee! I won't say 'I told you so'.

    Just sit back and see what PCM (UK)'s next move is. Surely you don't want to pay them?

    Ye Gods, this is the outfit you're dealing with - making it all up as they go along. All recorded by the BBC's Watchdog programme!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 22-07-2018 at 10:05 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jul 18, 10:09 PM
    • 59,976 Posts
    • 73,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Do I have a chance if I leave it as it is and wait for the letter from court ?
    Hahaha, obviously yes.

    IAS was just a exercise to put PCM through and to see their hand, and to try and see if this could be a rare case cancelled. Instead you got a typical biased and bizarre decision which gives no thought to whether a contract can be formed when no parking licence was offered, and just says 'I've seen this site before and it's fine, get lost!'

    So what, nothing has changed and we still see 99% wins when defending these cases, especially easy to show PCM as predatory.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 23rd Jul 18, 6:17 AM
    • 2,957 Posts
    • 4,989 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    At bit off the wall but why not SAR the IAS. If they claim "legal privilege" go back and say that as the adjudication is not signed, or the person identified as being legally qualified, then you'll challenge this at the ICO.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • casper82
    • By casper82 8th Aug 18, 5:01 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    casper82
    Hi all, thanks for the feedback and support.
    After reviewing your comments, I decided to take a very simple action now...... to wait and see what happens next. I already got a note from PCM that because of the IAS decision, the fine has to be paid in full, so no "discount" , and the fine used to be 60, but now its the full amount 100.
    I don't want to pay it obviously and will wait for what happens next... I will report back when anything new comes up.

    Take care by then...
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 8th Aug 18, 5:24 PM
    • 8,091 Posts
    • 10,627 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Hi all, thanks for the feedback and support.
    After reviewing your comments, I decided to take a very simple action now...... to wait and see what happens next. I already got a note from PCM that because of the IAS decision, the fine has to be paid in full, so no "discount" , and the fine used to be 60, but now its the full amount 100.
    I don't want to pay it obviously and will wait for what happens next... I will report back when anything new comes up.

    Take care by then...
    Originally posted by casper82
    Take no notice of PCM and the scam IAS

    Just wait .... no doubt you will be blasted by moron
    debt collectors which you must treat as a huge joke
    and ignore them, powerless sewer life who love
    to waste their time

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74633409#post74633409
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
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