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  • FIRST POST
    • karenep
    • By karenep 30th May 18, 12:47 AM
    • 26Posts
    • 6Thanks
    karenep
    VCS Parking Fines - Now Court Papers arrive URGENT ADVISE PLEASE
    • #1
    • 30th May 18, 12:47 AM
    VCS Parking Fines - Now Court Papers arrive URGENT ADVISE PLEASE 30th May 18 at 12:47 AM
    County Court Claims Forms - Parking at a flat we own but tenant has permit
    We have been issued with parking tickets by Vehicle Control Services when parking on private property in Manchester - VCS manage the parking and each apartment is entitled to one permit. There is limited road parking and we from time to time have parked when carrying out maintenance to the apartment, each and every time, we have had a ticket left on the car - which we were advised to ignore, and each letter that followed - clearly bad advise. It has now got to the stage that Court papers have arrived, followed by particulars of claim from VCS.

    I am totally baffled at what we should do.

    The car is insured for two people to drive, and the person issued with the fine paperwork was not the driver.

    There is a sign within the apartments, its a locked access and you need a key fob to enter - the tenant has always opened this up for us.

    Can anyone recommend a defence or thread that I should read.

    I have been away, and the papers have already been here 10 days.

    What should I do?
Page 2
    • karenep
    • By karenep 6th Jul 18, 10:17 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    I have now received paperwork from the Courts "notice of proposed allocation to the small claims track", It is now a defended claim and I have to either partake in mediation or complete the N180 form and presumably go to court to fight this. Has anyone had any results from mediation with VCS?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Jul 18, 12:01 PM
    • 9,289 Posts
    • 9,551 Thanks
    KeithP
    Why don't you follow the guidance offered in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?

    In particular, Bargepole's walkthrough tells you how to answer every single question on that form.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jul 18, 1:32 PM
    • 61,698 Posts
    • 74,600 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Has anyone had any results from mediation with VCS?
    No, because no-one ticks yes, because they follow the NEWBIES thread (2nd post) advice.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • karenep
    • By karenep 10th Jul 18, 12:56 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    I am being absolutely thick, Ive read that over an over and cannot work out which is the 2nd post, is this within the q&a's any tips on exactly which part I should zoom in on would be appreciated.

    I have written to VCS although not got a reply, is it worth sending a copy of this to the Courts. I really do not want to have to attend court, particularly as VCS have specified a court 3 hours from where I live.

    "I write with frustration to the situation regarding Court proceedings relating to parking fines for parking in our own space at the property that we own!

    We have several vehicles within the family, all registered in individuals names but insured for several drivers each. The fines that have come through have arrived in the name of ???????, who is the registered owner but not necessarily the driver.

    The parking fines relate to Vehicles we own being parked in Space ?? !!!8211; our allocated space. On our deeds we have a Car Parking Space !!!8220;Space ??!!!8221; (a plan is provided to us and previously sent to the Courts) which is detailed as a Secure Car Park. At no point does it mention VCS having control of the car park. We have not agreed ourselves to a permit scheme. If you would like a copy of this from our deeds, I am happy to get this sent to you.

    The Car Park which holds 40 vehicles rarely has more than 10 vehicles in it !!!8211; always, there are empty spaces and parking has never been an issue with Shoppers using the car park. The Car Park additionally, is secured with locked gates, you need a Fob to enter this car park !!!8211; why would this be an issue and necessitate a Permit system?

    You allocate just one permit in any case, this is not sufficient. We ourselves do not reside at the property, and we have to visit to carry out remedial works and in fact had to make several visits most recently due to significant lengthy issues !!!8211; There was a major water leak which meant the properties had NO water for several days, we had to have the Water Boiler overhauled due to a major breakdown and we have had several instances of Mice within the Apartment !!!8211; whilst Premier instructed a local company, they did not undertake the blocking of any access points and we had to carry out this works ourselves. Obviously, when we attend the property for maintenance, we need to park the vehicle and use space ?? for this purpose.

    There have been occasions when the same car, day in day out parks within space ??, showing a permit !!!8211; however, the one day the permit has fallen from the screen, a parking fine is applied to the vehicle !!!8211; VCS know this vehicle and know the vehicle has been there day in day out showing a permit. There was a time when Premier were delayed sending out permits, and VCS even then, although being told by Premier not to do so, applied parking tickets. The whole matter is ludicrous.

    We own Apartment ??, which is allocated one permit !!!8211; the space anyone visiting that apartment only ever parks in space ??, to reiterate, the space detailed on our Deeds.

    To conclude, I have fines and a court case pending in my name, there is no evidence to suggest and I cannot deny or confirm that I was the one driving the vehicle that day.

    I would ask that between you, you take a look at this case.

    I have written to Premier and Mainstay for their assistance in this matter"

    To date, no reply from any of them!!
    • karenep
    • By karenep 10th Jul 18, 1:28 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    I have found and followed Bargepole's walkthrough - completed the N180 Small Claims Form and returned this to Northampton Court. Is it just a waiting game now?
    • karenep
    • By karenep 10th Jul 18, 1:44 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    And to add to this, I have now received a Letter Before Claim from VCS Litigation team, relating to parking charges left on another vehicle whereby I am the registered keeper but not necessarily the driver - these relate to parking between 25 July 2017 and 25 February 2018 - Principle debt 600, estimated interest 11.05, estimated court fees 60 - Estimated total 671.05.

    I have been asked to pay this by 20 July to prevent further legal action.

    I am am sick and tired of this, we own the god dam apartment - one permit only is issued - when the tenant is away, we are unable to get this permit for display.

    Any advise on how I respond to these letters, other than they have already received the above letter and facts.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 18, 1:02 AM
    • 61,698 Posts
    • 74,600 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I have found and followed Bargepole's walkthrough - completed the N180 Small Claims Form and returned this to Northampton Court. Is it just a waiting game now?
    Originally posted by karenep
    Yes for the Notice of Allocation, giving you the date to file your WS and evidence.

    I am being absolutely thick, Ive read that over an over and cannot work out which is the 2nd post
    Constantly amazed when a few people say this...have you not noticed every reply on a thread, has a number top right of it? This is #27. Look!

    So the second post on a thread, is the second reply. The one with #2 on it in the NEWBIES thread.

    Your other ones, you will have to fight same as this one. Why on earth did the residents agree to a firm like VCS (ex-clampers) marauding around and fining you all? If you didn't agree and you own the flat a you say, you need to read all the threads you find when you search:

    Landlord Tenant Act consensus Managing agent

    ...and then ask your MA why the heck they have foisted a scam on you, and why they failed to obtain a consensus among leaseholders first, to formally vary your leases (which you would never have agreed to, and have never been asked to agree to).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-07-2018 at 1:05 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • karenep
    • By karenep 12th Jul 18, 12:13 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    Thank you for this, I have today written AGAIN to Premier Estates and requested that they intervene and assist the matter. It is ludicrous and nothing more than a money making scam. I will keep you updated with any developments.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Jul 18, 1:25 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You dont request
    You require
    You a leaseholder. THey are infringing your lease.
    • karenep
    • By karenep 20th Jul 18, 12:35 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    Sent off my letter to Premier instructing them that this is our parking space, as detailed in our lease, (together with the fact that we have never agreed to any such parking scheme) and that I require them to contact VCS and cancel out any charges relating our space. They sent on some sort of email to VCS who basically replied saying they made us on offer in June to pay 60 per fine and cancel out the court proceedings, as we did not pay, they are continuing to take this through court. Surely, premier can just instruct them to stop?


    I have gone back to Premier instructing them to contact VCS and stop any claim whatsoever, surely they as the Estate Management company can do this - I await their response.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 20th Jul 18, 12:40 PM
    • 2,762 Posts
    • 3,489 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    have you contacted your MP ?


    please read ... watch the below for information ...




    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    and slightly longe,r the committee stage

    https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d5550515-cce9-4185-83ec-754dadb7524a

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.




    Good luck


    Ralph
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jul 18, 10:10 PM
    • 61,698 Posts
    • 74,600 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Did you do this search and write with this detail about the L&T Act?
    If you didn't agree and you own the flat a you say, you need to read all the threads you find when you search:

    Landlord Tenant Act consensus Managing agent

    ...and then ask your MA why the heck they have foisted a scam on you, and why they failed to obtain a consensus among leaseholders first, to formally vary your leases (which you would never have agreed to, and have never been asked to agree to).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 20th Jul 18, 11:23 PM
    • 2,280 Posts
    • 3,114 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Are Premier the managing agents or the freeholder/landlord?

    If they are the MA it might be that the contract with VCS is not with them - but with the freeholder/landlord.

    It might be worth asking Premier (if you get nowhere this time) who are the two parties to the contract - if it's not them then they may not be able to cancel tickets. Mind you they might have told you that! Ask them who the other party is and by what authority the PPC was introduced.

    As ever, I agree with others that no-one should be ticketed for parking in their own, owned space. Although, it sounds from what has been said it may be a car park with no allocated spaces?

    ETA.

    Read the thread again and it looks like that Mainstay are the landlords/freeholder. Sorry - missed that!. They could have instructed Premier to appoint a PPC and the contract may be with them. Worth clarifying
    Last edited by NeilCr; 20-07-2018 at 11:31 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 20th Jul 18, 11:33 PM
    • 19,269 Posts
    • 24,501 Thanks
    Redx
    your case seems similar to this recent win for bargepole

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5869887

    also read this too

    https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • karenep
    • By karenep 24th Jul 18, 8:14 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    Received a response from Premier Estates, who I would imagine make money themselves out this this. I have not had any monthly updates, not did I ever write and agree to a Permit sheme. We do not live at this address, our Daughter does, she lets it from us. We often use a variety of Cars when visiting usually for maintenanc work needed.

    Premier are the Management Company, the Lease is with Mainstay.


    Good Afternoon Karen,

    Unfortunately we are unable to assist you with cancelling parking tickets received under the parking management scheme at Life 3.

    The scheme has been in place since 2015, with renewed parking permits issued to the properties each year.

    The below was the notification of the introduction of the parking management scheme, sent to leaseholders in February 2015:

    Parking Permits/Enforcement

    As you are aware from previous Periodic Monthly Updates, we are in the process of introducing a Parking Permit/Enforcement System. The delay with this was due to a small number of allocated parking bays being registered incorrectly with Land Registry. This issue has now been resolved and we are in correspondence with the allocated contractor Vehicle Control Services Limited (VCS) to arrange for mobile patrols on the development.

    In order to prevent unauthorised parking on the development, each vehicle will need to display a valid parking permit at all times in their vehicle. Any vehicle that does not display the parking permit will be issued with a fixed financial penalty. This will also apply to any vehicles not parked in their correct parking bays and applies to both underground and external parking bays. One parking permit per parking bay will be issued free of charge at a later date, once a date for the patrolling to commence has been confirmed.

    In order to proceed please could you kindly email emma.senior@premierestateslimited.com to confirm the details of your vehicle:


    Vehicle Make and Model
    Vehicle Registration Number


    The parking at Life 3 is allocated and one permit issued per bay. Should you wish for other vehicles to park there then it is your responsibility to either ensure the parking company are aware !!!8211; either directly or via us, or alternatively, allow the second vehicle to use the permit for the bay.



    I have checked the previous correspondence regarding this and VCS have already advised that at the time of issue you made no attempt to either appeal or offer mitigating circumstances in order to have the tickets revoked, which resulted in them proceeding to the next stage !!!8211; court.



    With reference to your advising that the parking space belongs to your property I would refer you back to your lease, specifically Schedule 3, clause 9:



    !!!8220;Not to cause any obstruction in or on the said shared driveway drives or access roads and footpaths adjacent or leading to the building by leaving or parking or permitting to be left or parked any motorcycle bicycle perambulator or other vehicle belonging to or used by any of his friends servants or visitors and to observe all regulations made by the company from time to time relating to the parking of such vehicles!!!8221;



    This includes the implementation of a parking management scheme.



    I appreciate that this is not the answer you were hoping for however there is nothing more we can do to assist you in this matter.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 24th Jul 18, 8:55 PM
    • 2,280 Posts
    • 3,114 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Can I just check re your parking space.

    Is one defined in your lease as yours? Specifically, referred to. If not, how was it allocated to you?

    In terms of fobs. Unfortunately, the system doesn't
    always work. Residents use them to let their friends/relatives in - and I've known them not to be returned when someone leaves (just in case!)
    • karenep
    • By karenep 25th Jul 18, 1:02 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    Hello Neil. Appreciate your assistance. Defined within the Lease we have a Car Park Plan and ith it an associated and high-lighted parking space being the one we and the Tenants use.

    The fobs they issue are not essential, yes people can let anyone in and even the VCS man himself by passes this at times, putting his hand through the metal gates, turning an operation switch to manual and pushing them open. We had to replace ours recently, at a charge of 45.
    • karenep
    • By karenep 25th Jul 18, 1:12 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    Local or Manchester MP?
    Ralph-y........This is very interesting, would I contact my local MP where I live or at the address (that we own and let) where the parking charges relate to?
    Last edited by karenep; 25-07-2018 at 1:13 PM. Reason: add name
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 25th Jul 18, 1:19 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Respond back stating:

    The regulations cannot be made so that they:
    1 )Derogate from the granted use of the space
    2) REquire the lessee to contract with a 3rd party to park in the space granted to them
    3) Require the lessee to pay a sum outside of that agreed in the lease, and to a 3rd party who has no rights whatsoever under the lease.
    4) interefere with the peaceful enjoyment of the property

    Cancel the charge, remove my space from the scheme, or be on the receiving end of an injunction prohibinting your agents trespass on my land, and a bill for damages.
    • karenep
    • By karenep 25th Jul 18, 1:36 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    karenep
    Remove me from scheme.
    Do I write exactly that?, I find Premier to be so obnoxious and want to be clear in everything I write to them - they look quite happy to go court route.

    I guess removing me from the Scheme does not affect my right to the allocated space?

    Respond back stating:

    The regulations cannot be made so that they:
    1 )Derogate from the granted use of the space
    2) REquire the lessee to contract with a 3rd party to park in the space granted to them
    3) Require the lessee to pay a sum outside of that agreed in the lease, and to a 3rd party who has no rights whatsoever under the lease.
    4) interefere with the peaceful enjoyment of the property

    Cancel the charge, remove my space from the scheme, or be on the receiving end of an injunction prohibinting your agents trespass on my land, and a bill for damages.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
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