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  • FIRST POST
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 25th May 18, 8:45 PM
    • 21Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    HX CPM Non POFA compliant and citing Elliot v Locke
    • #1
    • 25th May 18, 8:45 PM
    HX CPM Non POFA compliant and citing Elliot v Locke 25th May 18 at 8:45 PM
    Apologies if this is covered elsewhere but I have not managed to find it.


    A relative has sent a first letter appeal to HX Car Park Management against a PCN issued by post (no windscreen ticket) alleging "you did not pay and display or did not enter the correct registration number".


    The relative appealed as the keeper of the vehicle (not the driver) stating that there was no keeper liability and that "a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK which by law must comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA)" Furthermore they issued HX CPM with a Section 10 Data Subject Notice for breach of the Data Protection Act 1998. This was issued as the relative stated that HX PCM had no "reasonable cause" to pursue the keeper. Non compliance with POFA they argued meant there can be no transfered liability and no legally enforceable charge against the keeper.


    HX CPM rejected the appeal (no surprises there!). There rejection letter states:


    "If you, the keeper, are unwilling to name the driver at the date of the contravention, you will remain liable for the PCN. We do not have to comply with POFA in regards to issuing tickets, and as per the case of Elliot v Locke, if the keeper is unwilling to name the driver, then we can proceed with the assumption that the keeper was the driver at the time of the contravention"


    They go on to re-offer the lower "prevailing price" (sixty pounds) for a further period of 14 days from the date of the rejection letter or suggest an appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS).


    I am aware of the advice not to appeal to IAS. The letter also has a BPA logo on the bottom - could my relative request a POPLA appeal instead?


    I am aware that Elliot v Locke is a criminal case ruling and is not relevant to keeper liability in a civil case. I am unsure however why HX CPM so readily claim that they do not need to comply with POFA. Is there something I am missing? Of course it's not the issuing of PCNs that has to comply with POFA but surely then, since they are not POFA compliant, they have no grounds to chase the keeper for payment of the PCN?
Page 2
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 22nd Sep 18, 11:28 AM
    • 11,090 Posts
    • 14,867 Thanks
    beamerguy
    There weren't any debt collectors. They didn't bother trying it on in the end... Went straight from HX PCM to Gladstones Solicitors!!
    Originally posted by Mr Picklehead
    Then, they are not entitled to £60 all to themselves

    All they can do is claim the base price of the ticket
    plus court fees and legal fees which are capped anyway

    So, the Gladstones boys, pinky and perky are trying it on
    yet again ...... such an incompetent bunch

    Any legal quoting "Elliot v Locke" is raving bonkers but ..... that
    is Gladstones for you
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 22nd Sep 18, 11:50 AM
    • 3,561 Posts
    • 5,520 Thanks
    fisherjim
    There weren't any debt collectors. They didn't bother trying it on in the end... Went straight from HX PCM to Gladstones Solicitors!!
    Originally posted by Mr Picklehead



    You do realise that the IAS and Gladstones are both run by the very same people!


    Some cynical people might call this a scam!


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/01/is-independent-appeal-service-kangaroo.html
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 22nd Sep 18, 11:53 AM
    • 11,090 Posts
    • 14,867 Thanks
    beamerguy
    You do realise that the IAS and Gladstones are both run by the very same people!


    Some cynical people might call this a scam!


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/01/is-independent-appeal-service-kangaroo.html
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    So polite as usual Mr Fisher .....

    IPC & GLADSTONES ARE THE BIGGEST SCAM IN THE UK


    Point is ..... does Sir Greg Knight really understand this ?
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 22nd Sep 18, 11:53 AM
    • 797 Posts
    • 1,057 Thanks
    onlyfoolsandparking
    Whilst you have been given great advice from the most experienced posters on here you (or your relative) appealed to the IAS when advised not to. I absolutely understand why you chose that option as some indeed have been upheld (very few in truth get upheld) so it was worth a shot but you need to really get a handle on the game your involved in now.


    When I got my PCN (late Feb) I was advised not to appeal to the IAS as if it goes to court PPC can claim your appeal failure at IAS as a sort of 1-0 to them and why give them an own goal.


    I don't believe for a minute you have done irreparable damage by appealing but do read, read and read some more before you jump in feet first with potentially wrong moves. (I have been guilty of it too by the way in the beginning)


    The advice given on here by the regulars is unbelievably extensive and gets real results, I hope you too get the desired outcome.
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 22nd Sep 18, 12:51 PM
    • 4,378 Posts
    • 5,424 Thanks
    Johno100
    So, the Gladstones boys, pinky and perky are trying it on yet again ...... such an incompetent bunch

    Any legal quoting "Elliot v Locke" is raving bonkers but ..... that is Gladstones for you
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    It has got be asked if Gladstones have had their rear ends handed to them on numerous occasions for using E vs L then by continuing to use that case when they know it is destined to fail aren't they in breach of any of the SRA Codes of Conduct?
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 22nd Sep 18, 12:59 PM
    • 797 Posts
    • 1,057 Thanks
    onlyfoolsandparking
    From what I can gather by reading A LOT of posts on here the SRA whilst serving some purpose?? are essentially ineffective and show a distinct lack of interest when it comes to 'Low rent' solicitors.


    I could be wrong, I hope I am wrong but have the SRA ever sanctioned one of these 'Gladstone' type scumpanies.
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • Bookends
    • By Bookends 22nd Sep 18, 1:39 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Bookends
    The SRA seem more concerned with solicitors firms who misappropriate clients cash than dealing with abuses of processes
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 22nd Sep 18, 4:44 PM
    • 11,090 Posts
    • 14,867 Thanks
    beamerguy
    From what I can gather by reading A LOT of posts on here the SRA whilst serving some purpose?? are essentially ineffective and show a distinct lack of interest when it comes to 'Low rent' solicitors.

    I could be wrong, I hope I am wrong but have the SRA ever sanctioned one of these 'Gladstone' type scumpanies.
    Originally posted by onlyfoolsandparking
    The SRA can only be compared to the IPC.
    IE: It looks after it's members despite having principals
    which the SRA themselves don't follow.

    There was a Michael David Schwartz who really was a bad
    boy and tied up with CEL

    READ ABOUT IT HERE
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/search?q=Schwartz

    The SRA is a very sad organistation which now carries
    no credibilty as Gladstones / IPC and BWLegal have been
    reported many times to no avail

    (Del boy, why don't you save the Parking Prankster site
    to your favourites then by using the search bar at the
    top of the site, you can help others by pointing them
    to the antics of these legal cronies and PPC's)
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 22nd Sep 18, 5:41 PM
    • 797 Posts
    • 1,057 Thanks
    onlyfoolsandparking
    The SRA can only be compared to the IPC.
    IE: It looks after it's members despite having principals
    which the SRA themselves don't follow.

    There was a Michael David Schwartz who really was a bad
    boy and tied up with CEL

    READ ABOUT IT HERE
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/search?q=Schwartz

    The SRA is a very sad organistation which now carries
    no credibilty as Gladstones / IPC and BWLegal have been
    reported many times to no avail

    (Del boy, why don't you save the Parking Prankster site
    to your favourites then by using the search bar at the
    top of the site, you can help others by pointing them
    to the antics of these legal cronies and PPC's)
    Originally posted by beamerguy

    haha, oh I have Parking pranksters site in my favourites and have read it extensively, the court cases and comments are fantastic to read, shame he doesn't seem to be around much these days or am I mistaken?
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 22nd Sep 18, 6:54 PM
    • 11,090 Posts
    • 14,867 Thanks
    beamerguy
    haha, oh I have Parking pranksters site in my favourites and have read it extensively, the court cases and comments are fantastic to read, shame he doesn't seem to be around much these days or am I mistaken?
    Originally posted by onlyfoolsandparking
    Don't know where he has gone, hope he returns.

    There is enough info to kill a rat anyway

    The trouble with the dodgy legals is that month after
    month they produce the same old cr*p .... so people
    must understand their cr*p which can be found on the
    Prankster site ... and the answer can be found.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Sep 18, 1:39 AM
    • 70,386 Posts
    • 82,979 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think he's busy right now, but usually returns.

    IMHO, his website suffers from dodgy links at the moment though, IYSWIM, so I try to avoid pointing people to it. Shame.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 27th Jan 19, 1:02 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    Just an update on this one. My relative now seems to be at the monthly letter from Gladstones phase!!


    The first one claimed to be an LBC but they never replied to any request for the appropriate documentation.


    The second one made no mention of court or "LBC" but went back to banging on about Elliot V Loake and assumptions about who the driver was. (IGNORED)


    The third one asked for proof that my relative was not the driver (SHE POINTED OUT THAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF LIES WITH THEM), invited payment of 160 pounds (SHE DECLINED!), asked for the name and address of the driver (DECLINED), and stated "if you fail to provide any of the above within 30 days we will pursue you as registered keeper" (SHE REPLIED THAT THEIR CLIENT ISSUED A NON POFA COMPLIANT PCN SO LEGALLY THERE IS NO KEEPER LIABILITY).


    It looks like they have shot themselves in the foot with that last statement!! They have talked themselves into a position that they can not win.... Or am I being too optimistic at this stage?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 27th Jan 19, 1:13 PM
    • 23,075 Posts
    • 36,659 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    To whom does the last letter tell you to pay?

    Does the reference number begin with a 1xxx?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 22nd Mar 19, 12:34 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    You do realise that the IAS and Gladstones are both run by the very same people!


    Some cynical people might call this a scam!


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/01/is-independent-appeal-service-kangaroo.html
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    Yeah I personally wouldn’t have done it but my relative thought not playing their games may also look bad if it went to court and she’d read on here that there have been some appeals won.

    Ultimately o damage done... if it goes to court the IAS decision won’t be a clincher for Gallstones!!
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 22nd Mar 19, 12:39 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    That should say “no harm done”
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 22nd Mar 19, 12:42 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    I don’t have the letter with me sorry . I’ll post details later. It says to pay Gallstones directly though!!!
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 22nd Mar 19, 12:46 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    And just an update.... Gallstones have sent another letter asking for £160 payment... and this is the laughable bit... There’s no mention of Elliott V Loake but there are now claiming keeper liability and saying the PCN WAS POFA compliant!!! ������
    • Pjr1525
    • By Pjr1525 22nd Mar 19, 3:40 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 138 Thanks
    Pjr1525
    Incomplete vrn
    Hi mr pickles. If you are being pursued for incomplete vrn entered, go to my posts on the forum.

    Post 106/ 107 you will find a link to an old website of HX's where they say they understand human error and don't issue PCNs if a digit or 2 is inputted incorrectly. It's a poor copy, but readable. Best wishes.
    • fil cad
    • By fil cad 22nd Mar 19, 7:13 PM
    • 789 Posts
    • 654 Thanks
    fil cad
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/614470672230287/permalink/831691287174890/
    PPCs say its carpark management, BPA say its raising standards..... we all know its just about raking in the revenue.
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 16th Apr 19, 1:41 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    Well well well Gallstones are taking this all the way to court... My relative just got the County Court "Claim Form"... They refer to the defendant as the "driver/keeper"... I think they're hedging their bets a little there!!!
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