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  • FIRST POST
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 23rd May 18, 10:17 AM
    • 23Posts
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    Shadow0ftheday
    Bw legal letter
    • #1
    • 23rd May 18, 10:17 AM
    Bw legal letter 23rd May 18 at 10:17 AM
    Hey guys,

    I have today received a letter from bw legal after weeks of hearing nothing from a company trying to persue me for an alleged overstay at a car park.
    What the experience with this company? For this one ticket I've had about 3 different companies contacting me trying to scare me into paying it. So far I've ignored everything I've been sent (maybe not the best idea but I can't go back now) so shall I continue to ignore them?
    I've read some stuff online about how harassing they can be. Any advice on what to do next?
Page 2
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 19th Jun 18, 7:34 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    Hello its me again,
    thank you guys for your continued support, i know its probably frustrating helping people who arent too good with this stuff. I have done a first draft of my letter to send to BW legal in response the letter of claim i received from them. Any feedback would be great. I used the examples you guys directed me to and this is what ive come up with. am i right in thinking at this stage i dont need to mention any details that ill use to challenge them in court?
    i have ignored any letters up until this point, mainly because they refer to me with the wrong title, spelled part of my address incorrectly and I never believed the driver even overstayed, the driver doesnt have the ticket to see as the letter came over a month after the car park was used. so probably got thrown away. thinking it was just a scam, i ignored them. which i now realise was not the right thing to do. but too late now.

    anyway, here it is.

    Bw Legal
    Eneterprise House
    Apex View
    Leeds
    West Yorkshire
    LS11 9BH

    DATE

    Account number: xxxxxxxx

    I am in reciept of your letter of claim dated xxxxx.

    Firstly I state that I deny any debt is owed by myself to your client.

    Your letter contains insufficient detail detail of the claim, I require your client to provide me with the following information or documents that you intend to rely on;

    1- Wether they are persuing me as keeper or driver of the vehicle.
    2- Wether they are relying on the provisions of schedule 4 of POFA 2012.
    3- The details of the claim, ie. Where it is claimed the car was parked, any photographic evidence gathered at the time as proof of the alleged overstay.
    4- Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, I require a copy of that contract.
    5- A copy of the contract with the land owner under which they assert the authority to bring the claim.
    6- A plan showing where the sign are displayed in the car park.
    7- Details of the signage, size of the signs themselves, size and font used, and the height at which each sign is displyed.
    8- Details of the original charge, and details of any interest or administrative charges that have contributed to the inflation of the charge.

    Please regard this letter as a formal request for this information, I am entitled to this information under paragraph 6 (a) and 6 (c) of the Practice Direction. Util your client provides with this information I am unable to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6 (b), and will also be unable to respond properly to the alleged claim, and consider my position in relation to it. It would be entirely premature and a waste of costs and court time, to issue proceedings.
    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20); Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Your letter also provides an income and expenditure form, that requires completion. This is very misleading as it only relates to someone who admits the debt. I am fully aware of that BW Legal have been shamed in recent parliamentry debates, where MPs unanimously clamoured to expose rogue parking firms and thier 'cosy relationship' with firms such as BW Legal, making a mint from thier clients rogue ticketing and unfair fining. Poor signage, unreasonable terms, exorborant fines and aggressive and intimidating demands for payment have no place in the 21st century.

    Yours Faithfully,

    me.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jun 18, 2:07 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    am i right in thinking at this stage i dont need to mention any details that ill use to challenge them in court?
    You should do, if you have a killer point, best to state it early (looks better later at court if you were open & honest in pre-court letters).

    Re this, I would just change it a little:
    Your letter also provides an income and expenditure form, that you state ''requires completion''.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 20th Jun 18, 5:43 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    thanks so much coupon mad.

    my key point is that it was dark when the driver entered the car park. and obviously with these places theres never any lighting on them. the pictures of the car were taken on entry and exit i assume by apr cameras. the driver made a phone call upon returning to the car and thus ended up leaving the car park late, but didnt know you had to leave before the time was up on your ticket, just that you had to return to your car by then. without being able to read the signs there was no way of knowing how the car park was controlled. is this worth including at this stage? does it seem like a good, valid argument?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Jun 18, 1:07 AM
    • 61,747 Posts
    • 74,658 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes it does, unlit signs can win a case because the terms can't be read.

    I would add it and ask specifically for pictures of the signs in hours of darkness...they will not be able to come up with them, I expect. When then gives you something else to say in your defence to the inevitable claim.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 21st Jun 18, 5:48 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    but didnt know you had to leave before the time was up on your ticket
    Was this pay and display? If it was how long after the P&D ticket ran out did you leave?
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 27th Jun 18, 8:03 PM
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    Shadow0ftheday
    It was yes.
    About 20 mins.
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 28th Jun 18, 8:34 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    Hey guys,

    this is what i am thinking i will add in, does this sound okay?
    i need to get it sent very soon as the deadline is fast approaching, so after this addition do you think it will be okay to send? or is there anything else i should add?

    'Upon entering the car park it was dark, with the signs being unlit and very unclear, there was no possible way for the driver to read the signs. This would therefore mean that a contract could not have been formed. The formation of a contract relies on offer, consideration and acceptance. The driver could not consider the conditions of the contract whilst unable to read them, and thus would not have been able to accept them. Another important aspect was that it has now become known through the use of the ANPR cameras that the driver would have to leave the carpark in question before the time on the ticket had run out. Vastly inadequate signage would have made this impossible for the driver to be aware of this. Whilst the driver had returned to the car in plenty of time, they would have been unaware of the necessity to leave the car park. It is vastly unfair to expect the driver to be able to return to their vehicle having used the full hour they rightly paid for, but also to leave the car park before this time.'

    Thank you again.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 28th Jun 18, 9:06 PM
    • 9,306 Posts
    • 9,582 Thanks
    KeithP
    Vastly inadequate signage would have made this impossible for the driver to be aware of this. Whilst the driver had returned to the car in plenty of time, they would have been were unaware of the necessity to leave the car park.
    Originally posted by Shadow0ftheday
    Add the word in blue.
    .
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 28th Jun 18, 9:25 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    great thank you!!
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 29th Jun 18, 11:09 AM
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    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    Would you say it will now be okay to send with the changes done?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jun 18, 5:15 PM
    • 61,747 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    If you are still at 'reply to LBC' stage you could say the Earth was square and BW Legal would still not read it and will proceed with a claim. So it doesn't matter too much.

    You need to read ahead, read BW Legal defence threads.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-07-2018 at 3:29 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 6th Jul 18, 10:02 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    This is the letter ive been sent this morning. Im guessing theres not a lot of point in replying?

    hxxps://postimg.cc/image/4oguzdrxt/

    Not sure if this link will work. Can someome make it live please.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 6th Jul 18, 10:06 AM
    • 8,495 Posts
    • 11,207 Thanks
    beamerguy
    This is the letter ive been sent this morning. Im guessing theres not a lot of point in replying?

    hxxps://postimg.cc/image/4oguzdrxt/

    Not sure if this link will work. Can someome make it live please.
    Originally posted by Shadow0ftheday
    would help if the image was vertical ?

    https://postimg.cc/image/4oguzdrxt/
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jul 18, 6:40 PM
    • 61,747 Posts
    • 74,658 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    'Legally privileged' LOL...! Load of trash.

    Same letter is seen all the time, get ready to defend a claim, which is where these are won.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 8th Jul 18, 6:29 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    Theyve sent me another letter saying theyve put my account on hold and will be in contact on 30 days because of the things ive requested. The normal stuff. Not really sure why it needed to be sent in two letters. But there you go.
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 18th Jul 18, 10:25 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    Hey guys.
    Theyve now replied but havent actually given me any of what i asked for. Just copies of the same things they've sent already! None of the details i asled for about signage etc has been included. Should i send another letter?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jul 18, 11:37 PM
    • 61,747 Posts
    • 74,658 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I wouldn't.

    In post #31, three weeks ago, I told you a claim is inevitable, so read up on what to do as explained in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread, to save you coming back in 2 weeks asking what to do.

    Best to research it now, so you know what to do, and can then show us your defence.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Shadow0ftheday
    • By Shadow0ftheday 19th Jul 18, 8:09 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shadow0ftheday
    Thank you.
    Been reading through the defence stuff just wondered if it was worth replying again at this stage, but like you said i guess its just a waste of time x
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 19th Jul 18, 8:19 AM
    • 3,308 Posts
    • 5,568 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    but like you said i guess its just a waste of time x
    It is a waste of time at this stage. If you get a claim you repeat as they will then have to send pics of the signs (the "contract") to help narrow the issues.

    You can ask again for them to identify their client to help narrow the issues and if refused, ask them to explain in any defence, or WS.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
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