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  • FIRST POST
    • Aether
    • By Aether 20th May 18, 9:24 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Aether
    PCM fine for own space - clarification on tenancy agreement
    • #1
    • 20th May 18, 9:24 PM
    PCM fine for own space - clarification on tenancy agreement 20th May 18 at 9:24 PM
    Hi there,



    I have two "outstanding" "fines" from PCM for not displaying a permit in my own parking space, I have contacted Private Parking Appeals UK to help with this but unfortunately it seems the older fine has escalated to the point of debt collection letters anyway (I've sent an email to them about that). The letter is from "Trace" debt recovery uk limited. I'm probably going to ignore them for now as the newbie Q&A states.



    I am currently in contact with my Housing Association regarding this and will be calling them tomorrow. I will post back later after their response, will be sure to complain about PCM's antics and point out issues only began once PCM got involved. I will also be looking for clarification between the relationship of themselves, the landlord and PCM.



    On several points my tenancy agreement seems to argue that PCM have no case here:

    • No mention of needing a permit for the space we're alloted.
    • There is a section that states the tenancy agreement gives "no rights or remedies" to any person except the landlord and tenancy and their respective sucessors.
    • The section covering changes of services hasn't been followed (We should be sent a letter outlining changes of services and should be given a "reasonable" period of time to respond), essentially PCM's presence appeared overnight with nothing except a singular letter from PCM themselves that we never recieved. PCM have a photograph of the letter apparently hanging halfway out of our letterbox...


    All this of course I suppose comes with the "primacy of contract" and "right to quiet enjoyment" arguments as well?


    My concern is that I'm unsure of if the tenancy agreement holds weight against any agreements made between the private landlord and PCM directly, if any are made. I know the answer is probably "it depends" but if anybody has any experience or insight in dealing with that particular problem any advice would be appreciated. I am an "assured" tenant.



    For what it's worth there were signs previously by the landlord stating residents need to display permits but this was not followed (by anybody) as permits were never sent in the first place and no issues have occurred with parking at all for the last year I've been using the space. It seems they've outsourced to PCM so now I'm experiencing my first issue with parking here!



    I would very much prefer not to pay 160/320+ for parking in my own space but would also like some idea of where things stand in the unlikely event they go to court.




    My apologies for following the newbies Q&A loosely, I felt that the tenancy agreement was solid enough on its own. I haven't stated who the driver of the vehicle was. I didn't appeal to IAS myself due to their reputation as a kangaroo court.


    Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st May 18, 1:55 AM
    • 61,486 Posts
    • 74,374 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 21st May 18, 1:55 AM
    • #2
    • 21st May 18, 1:55 AM
    I have contacted Private Parking Appeals UK to help
    https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/privateparkingappeals.co.uk

    ''This review is now the matter of legal proceedings''

    Seems from that, they are suing (or threatening to sue) online reviewers now. Others might comment about that.

    I won't be knowingly helping anyone who is a customer of that firm, sorry. You should have come here first.

    Wish I could have helped but not if you are trying to use a forum at the same time as them.

    Ask PPA seeing as you paid them...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 21st May 18, 6:57 AM
    • 10,551 Posts
    • 9,903 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #3
    • 21st May 18, 6:57 AM
    • #3
    • 21st May 18, 6:57 AM
    Slightly confused. You mention housing association and private landlord so I am not sure if you are a tenant of a housing association or a sub let.

    The contract with the PPC must be with the landowner. In many cases, the landlord need not be the landowner but a leaseholder.

    Assuming you are a direct tenant of the housing association and they appointed a PPC, then your tenancy agreement has primacy and if no mention of parking company in agreement, then you can fall back on that.

    However, can the housing association terminate your tenancy agreement and replace it with one that incorporates reference to a PPC?
    • Aether
    • By Aether 21st May 18, 4:04 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Aether
    • #4
    • 21st May 18, 4:04 PM
    • #4
    • 21st May 18, 4:04 PM
    Hi there,


    I found the PPA via the parking prankster website IIRC so my bad for not checking that, wouldn't of dealt with them if I know that was the case.



    Thanks for the information, I am a direct tenant and have had some confusion ourselves as this is a relatively new development and the HA has recently merged into a larger one. I believe if there will be an issue now it's going to be based on if ownership of the space itself is somehow different to the ownership of the apartment, which I will discuss with the HA.



    They shouldn't be able to terminate and replace the tenancy agreement at will as far as I can see. I see no clause in it that allows for that in regards to parking or otherwise, outside of the usual arrangements for eviction.



    To confirm the tenancy agreement makes no mention of any parking company or any permit based scheme.



    Thanks for the help!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st May 18, 4:41 PM
    • 61,486 Posts
    • 74,374 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 21st May 18, 4:41 PM
    • #5
    • 21st May 18, 4:41 PM
    Update us on how PPA help you.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 21st May 18, 6:15 PM
    • 10,551 Posts
    • 9,903 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #6
    • 21st May 18, 6:15 PM
    • #6
    • 21st May 18, 6:15 PM
    Hi there,


    I found the PPA via the parking prankster website IIRC so my bad for not checking that, wouldn't of dealt with them if I know that was the case.



    Thanks for the information, I am a direct tenant and have had some confusion ourselves as this is a relatively new development and the HA has recently merged into a larger one. I believe if there will be an issue now it's going to be based on if ownership of the space itself is somehow different to the ownership of the apartment, which I will discuss with the HA.



    They shouldn't be able to terminate and replace the tenancy agreement at will as far as I can see. I see no clause in it that allows for that in regards to parking or otherwise, outside of the usual arrangements for eviction.



    To confirm the tenancy agreement makes no mention of any parking company or any permit based scheme.



    Thanks for the help!
    Originally posted by Aether
    Then I would look at other threads over the last 3-6 months on here where the OP is a leaseholder as your situation is very similar to that but different where the OP is a tenant from a private landlord who is the leaseholder.

    Lots of success where primacy of contract has been the clincher and you should concentrate on that point.
    • Aether
    • By Aether 4th Jun 18, 6:47 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Aether
    • #7
    • 4th Jun 18, 6:47 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Jun 18, 6:47 PM
    Hi there,


    Just a quick update on this, I've received my second debt collector letter "last warning". I plan to ignore that of course and I'm pretty much at the point where I'm contacting my HA regularly to see if they can help resolve this, the HA is somewhat responsive at least and the housing officers at least aren't too impressed with PCM themselves (they've already had money out of other tenants who needed secondary permits).



    PPA I'm not really bothering with at this point since I doubt there is much they could do that is going to really help, the chances are it's at the point where I ignore in perpetuity or I actually get a court letter unless the HA gets it cancelled somehow. I offered to send evidence of my Tenancy agreement at the advice of my HA and PCM didn't even bother to respond to that stating that the terms of their contractual terms apply universally and it isn't disputed that I am a resident. (So they aren't even trying to hide the fact they want money out of residents, hey ho!) Honestly having read this letter half of this I swear they made up on the spot. "It's the motorist's responsibility to first check for signage" in my own parking space indeed.



    Ranting aside, primacy of contract is the salient point, and the specifcs of the tenancy agreement that state the conditions under which services can be changed (weren't followed) as well as the specific quote that the agreement offers no rights or remedies to third parties. If a letter for court action actually comes through that's what I'm going to have to build my argument around.



    Thanks for the help so far and I'll update if more comes of this.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 4th Jun 18, 7:04 PM
    • 9,995 Posts
    • 9,809 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 4th Jun 18, 7:04 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Jun 18, 7:04 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Aether
    • By Aether 5th Jun 18, 12:05 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Aether
    • #9
    • 5th Jun 18, 12:05 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Jun 18, 12:05 AM
    Taking it to the MP is something I'm absolutely intending to do, thanks for the video, it's good to see this is something that is being handled.


    I think it's fair to say were they handling anything other than parking these companies would of met an abrupt end years ago.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jun 18, 12:08 AM
    • 61,486 Posts
    • 74,374 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    PPA I'm not really bothering with at this point since I doubt there is much they could do that is going to really help,
    You paid them to help.

    You saw the TrustPilot reviews? Presumably not beforehand.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Aether
    • By Aether 5th Jun 18, 4:46 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Aether
    Indeed not beforehand I went to them straight from the parking prankster website which was probably a mistake.

    I've updated them on where things are and they have the relevant documents so I'll just have to see what they end up doing.
    • Aether
    • By Aether 12th Jul 18, 1:25 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Aether
    After nagging the local parking officer of the development these have been cancelled now according to them.



    Apparently I won't be receiving a letter to confirm the cancellation from PCM which I'm a bit sceptical of so I may need to contact PCM myself to make sure I haven't been fobbed off, last I checked it's still present in their appeal system.



    Fingers crossed my cynicism will be disproved here but I wouldn't put it past PCM to try to drudge this up in the future somehow.

    I was at the point of getting my MP to send an appeal on my behalf to PCM as well and made sure to complain about PCM's conduct in the process.

    PPA on the other hand have been pretty much been ignoring me for the last two months so unless some big response was coming along that seems to have been a waste of money.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Jul 18, 1:53 PM
    • 3,426 Posts
    • 4,257 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Just write to them stating that as per X of Y on Z date, the charges have been confirmed as cancelled. You require them to confirm this within 14 days and you will require they cease processing your data further as they no longer have cause to do so .

    I would send them a notice stating you require a refund, otherwise get a chargeback if paid for on cc.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jul 18, 2:26 PM
    • 61,486 Posts
    • 74,374 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Indeed not beforehand I went to them straight from the parking prankster website which was probably a mistake.
    There's a big mistake there somewhere...

    PPA on the other hand have been pretty much been ignoring me for the last two months so unless some big response was coming along that seems to have been a waste of money.
    Originally posted by Aether
    They appear to be busy suing people who leave Trust Pilot reviews, and accusing them of 'fraud' and typing frantic comments like:

    ''This review, and the conduct of the author, is the subject of criminal proceedings. This is the class of person allowed to blatantly lie about businesses on Trustpilot.''

    https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/privateparkingappeals.co.uk



    P.S. dunno why I have included the shocked face emoji, TBH...
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-07-2018 at 2:28 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Jul 18, 2:41 PM
    • 37,391 Posts
    • 84,258 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    After nagging the local parking officer of the development these have been cancelled now according to them.



    Apparently I won't be receiving a letter to confirm the cancellation from PCM which I'm a bit sceptical of so I may need to contact PCM myself to make sure I haven't been fobbed off, last I checked it's still present in their appeal system.



    Fingers crossed my cynicism will be disproved here but I wouldn't put it past PCM to try to drudge this up in the future somehow.

    I was at the point of getting my MP to send an appeal on my behalf to PCM as well and made sure to complain about PCM's conduct in the process.

    PPA on the other hand have been pretty much been ignoring me for the last two months so unless some big response was coming along that seems to have been a waste of money.
    Originally posted by Aether
    Well do the latter half of that anyway. This is the only way of getting this scam stopped.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jul 18, 2:44 PM
    • 61,486 Posts
    • 74,374 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So who are you complaining about, to your MP, remind me?...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Aether
    • By Aether 13th Jul 18, 1:08 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Aether
    Just write to them stating that as per X of Y on Z date, the charges have been confirmed as cancelled. You require them to confirm this within 14 days and you will require they cease processing your data further as they no longer have cause to do so .

    I would send them a notice stating you require a refund, otherwise get a chargeback if paid for on cc.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001

    Sounds good I will do that.


    So who are you complaining about, to your MP, remind me?...
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    PCM, referencing the points raised by The Deep earlier on as well as in regards to the issues that the unregulated parking industry have brought about to me as a constituent personally. The whole IPC system I find particularly egregious so will mention that.

    To be to the point though the lack of regulation for the parking industry is a huge blind spot in law that really should of been tackled by now and as my MP I expect them to support regulation of the parking industry as these companies are blatantly working against the interests of their own constituents (Which can be evidenced by PCM's awful track record in particular), especially when this already appears to have cross-party support.

    Some honourable mentions to their deliberately deceptive practices may also be worth mentioning? E.g: the parking notices that look like Penalty Charge Notices even down to stating they cannot be removed from the vehicle, their statements that housing associations/developers etc cannot get involved/mediate to try to isolate victims (I find this particularly insidious) and the bogus "debt" collection letters.

    I may need to mention my Housing Association as well but perhaps separately since they managed to lose their copy of the tenancy agreement and took 3 months of prodding to come back with the response "We can't handle it talk with x at y", which lead to the so-called "fines" worsening. Never mind that though not a parking issue.
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