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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 16th May 18, 6:49 PM
    • 62Posts
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    Jonesbo
    Is it worth mentioning pregnancy on first template?
    • #1
    • 16th May 18, 6:49 PM
    Is it worth mentioning pregnancy on first template? 16th May 18 at 6:49 PM
    Hi,

    The keeper received a letter from Euro Car Parks regarding an overstay in a pub car park.

    The driver had to get change from the pub to purchase the ticket. According to ECP ANPR entry was at 4.15, exit at 5.23. Ticket which the driver retains was valid until 5.21.

    According to the Newbies thread "You can (carefully!) add a little to the template above..."

    Given that the driver was 8m pregnant, is it worth adding this, or is that a no-no for any reason?

    Additonally, what's the rough timeframe from template appeal to popla to popla decision?

    Thanks
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th May 18, 7:08 PM
    • 11,431 Posts
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    KeithP
    • #2
    • 16th May 18, 7:08 PM
    • #2
    • 16th May 18, 7:08 PM
    Just send the blue template appeal from post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.
    Send it as it is - no changes or additions necessary.
    Send it as the keeper.

    At the same time complain to the pub.

    No point in mentioning pregnancy or any other mitigating circumstances.
    These parking companies are in it for money. Nothing else. There is no profit in letting anyone off.
    .
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 16th May 18, 7:28 PM
    • 2,893 Posts
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    Ralph-y
    • #3
    • 16th May 18, 7:28 PM
    • #3
    • 16th May 18, 7:28 PM
    more importantly you should be informed re 'grace periods '

    I hope not ... but your incoming baby might be many months old when this is finished .... hope things go well

    you can use the 'pregnancy' angle if you feel like sending letters after watching / reading the below

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

    Ralph
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 8:23 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 16th May 18, 8:23 PM
    • #4
    • 16th May 18, 8:23 PM
    According to ECP ANPR entry was at 4.15, exit at 5.23. Ticket which the driver retains was valid until 5.21.
    That's well within grace periods if the ticket covered the hour from 4.21 till 5.21?

    Given that the driver was 8m pregnant, is it worth adding this, or is that a no-no for any reason?
    Yes in this case, I would, and I wouldn't use the template! My advice:

    I would just cite the BPA CoP on grace periods and state that the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds stated in a formal BPA article, that good parking management required grace periods and that it may take some people longer to get to and from a PDT machine:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    'The BPA's guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator's conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket...No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.'

    DO NOT MENTION GETTING CHANGE.

    Just say that it took the driver longer to comfortably get out of the car and collect their belongings before going to read a sign, rummage for change and then pay, and they did so within five or six minutes. And this was because the driver was 8 months pregnant at the time, and was slower moving and less nimble on their feet than usual.

    Given the above and the fact the attached ticket covered 4.21 - 5.21, and the car left within 2 minutes of expiry, it's clear this fits well within reasonable grace periods for a heavily pregnant visitor and to pursue a charge would be in breach of the ICO CoP for ANPR/surveillance cameras, which in turn puts the operator in breach of the BPA Code, too.
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 16th May 18, 9:04 PM
    • 62 Posts
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    Jonesbo
    • #5
    • 16th May 18, 9:04 PM
    • #5
    • 16th May 18, 9:04 PM
    That's well within grace periods if the ticket covered the hour from 4.21 till 5.21?

    Yes in this case, I would, and I wouldn't use the template! My advice:

    I would just cite the BPA CoP on grace periods and state that the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds stated in a formal BPA article, that good parking management required grace periods and that it may take some people longer to get to and from a PDT machine:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    'The BPA's guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator's conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket...No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.'

    DO NOT MENTION GETTING CHANGE.

    Just say that it took the driver longer to comfortably get out of the car and collect their belongings before going to read a sign, rummage for change and then pay, and they did so within five or six minutes. And this was because the driver was 8 months pregnant at the time, and was slower moving and less nimble on their feet than usual.

    Given the above and the fact the attached ticket covered 4.21 - 5.21, and the car left within 2 minutes of expiry, it's clear this fits well within reasonable grace periods for a heavily pregnant visitor and to pursue a charge would be in breach of the ICO CoP for ANPR/surveillance cameras, which in turn puts the operator in breach of the BPA Code, too.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks, that's really helpful.

    Indeed, ticket was 4.21-5.21. Will draft and post ECP appeal here, to clarify, are you saying I shouldn't mention all the usual stuff re: popla etc from the appeal template?
    Last edited by Jonesbo; 16-05-2018 at 9:09 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th May 18, 9:11 PM
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    KeithP
    • #6
    • 16th May 18, 9:11 PM
    • #6
    • 16th May 18, 9:11 PM
    Additonally I can't see anywhere to appeal to ECP aside from info@ecp email address. I know I shouldn't post the appeal, so should I send it to that email instead?
    Doesn't the letter the keeper received from ECP tell you how to appeal?

    But you are right, a real letter is the last resort.
    .
    • kryten3000
    • By kryten3000 16th May 18, 9:56 PM
    • 83 Posts
    • 168 Thanks
    kryten3000
    • #7
    • 16th May 18, 9:56 PM
    • #7
    • 16th May 18, 9:56 PM
    "No point in mentioning pregnancy or any other mitigating circumstances."

    Pregnancy is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, it is *not* a mitigating circumstance.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 10:00 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 16th May 18, 10:00 PM
    • #8
    • 16th May 18, 10:00 PM
    Yes but the protection is so limited (except in a workplace situation) it's weak compared with disability discrimination. There is no right to 'reasonable adjustments' which is why I didn't mention it in what I suggest the OP writes in the online appeal.

    to clarify, are you saying I shouldn't mention all the usual stuff re: popla etc from the appeal template?
    None of it.
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 16th May 18, 10:23 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Jonesbo
    • #9
    • 16th May 18, 10:23 PM
    • #9
    • 16th May 18, 10:23 PM
    So something like this? To clarify, how would the keeper pursue this further if rejected, would ECP still include a popla code with the rejection even if the appeal doesn't mention popla Etc from the standard template?

    Thanks in advance

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Re PCN number: xx

    I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle.

    On the letter received you provide two pictures of the car numberplate, asserting that this shows entry at 4.15pm and exit at 5.23pm. The reason given for the charge is 'no valid pay and display/permit was purchased.

    Attached with this appeal is the parking ticket purchased at 4.21pm on the date in question, and valid until 5.21pm.

    I'd like to draw to your attention the British Parking Associations Code of Practice on Grace Periods. The BPA's Kelvin Reynolds stated in a formal BPA article, that good parking management required these grace periods and that it may take some people longer to get to and from a PDT machine:

    "The BPA's guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator's conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket...No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability."

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    In this case it took the driver longer to comfortably get out of the car and collect their belongings before going to read a sign, find change and then pay, and they did so within five or six minutes. And this was because the driver was over seven months pregnant at the time, and was slower moving and less nimble on their feet than usual.

    Given the above and the fact the attached ticket covered 4.21 - 5.21, and the car left within 2 minutes of expiry, it's clear this fits well within reasonable grace periods for a heavily pregnant visitor and to pursue a charge would be in breach of the ICO CoP for ANPR/surveillance cameras, which in turn puts the operator in breach of the BPA Code, too.

    Yours faithfully,

    Registered Keeper
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th May 18, 10:24 PM
    • 11,431 Posts
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    KeithP
    ...would ECP still include a popla code with the rejection even if the appeal doesn't mention popla Etc from the standard template?
    Originally posted by Jonesbo
    Yes, they must.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 11:02 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The reason given for the charge is 'no valid pay and display/permit was purchased.

    Attached with this appeal is the parking ticket purchased at 4.21pm on the date in question, and valid until 5.21pm.
    So they say no PDT was purchased. So does the ticket have the right VRN?
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 17th May 18, 4:58 AM
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    Guys Dad
    Even if they are claiming from 4.15, you are still within the grace period of 10 minutes. Worth including that.
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 17th May 18, 9:00 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Jonesbo
    So they say no PDT was purchased. So does the ticket have the right VRN?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hmmm yes just clocked this, assumed that just meant PDT not purchase for whole time period.

    Ticket has a truncated VRN (looks like there's only space for 5 characters)

    A similar example would be:

    VRN: AB58 DAD

    PDT: ADA58

    So assuming maybe VRN has been input wrongly depending on how they truncate it?
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 17th May 18, 12:55 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Jonesbo
    To clarify then, should I go with the appeal text I've pasted above (if this is ok), or should I re-do to include the fact a wrong reg no. may also be the problem?

    Thanks in advance
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th May 18, 1:11 PM
    • 20,487 Posts
    • 25,832 Thanks
    Redx
    FIRST, read the BPA CoP and especially any parts about checking for similar details when using ANPR cameras etc , also mention any partial errors are considered de-minimis
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 17th May 18, 8:32 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Jonesbo
    FIRST, read the BPA CoP and especially any parts about checking for similar details when using ANPR cameras etc , also mention any partial errors are considered de-minimis
    Originally posted by Redx
    Read the CoP and updated notes for Jan18 onwards, struggling to find anything in there regarding de-minimis/anpr. Forum search additionally doesn't seem to throw up anything formal.

    Only this seems vaguely relevant from CoP:

    Quality checks: before you issue a parking charge
    notice you must carry out a manual quality check of the
    ANPR images to reduce errors and make sure that it is
    appropriate to take action.
    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

    Rewritten appeal based on new information and above, would greatly appreciate if someone could scan and give thoughts. Thanks again for all the help so far.

    ---------------------

    Re PCN number: xx

    I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle.

    On the letter received you provide two pictures of the car numberplate, asserting that this shows entry at 4.15pm and exit at 5.23pm. The reason given for the charge is 'no valid pay and display/permit was purchased.

    Attached with this appeal is the parking ticket purchased at 4.21pm on the date in question, and valid until 5.21pm.

    I'd like to draw to your attention the British Parking Associations Code of Practice on Grace Periods. The BPA's Kelvin Reynolds stated in a formal BPA article, that good parking management required these grace periods and that it may take some people longer to get to and from a PDT machine:

    "The BPA's guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator's conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket...No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability."

    This has recently been updated further in the BPA CoP: Clause 13.2 and 30.2 - If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    In this case it took the driver longer to comfortably get out of the car and collect their belongings before going to read a sign, find change and then pay, and they did so within five or six minutes. And this was because the driver was over seven months pregnant at the time, and was slower moving and less nimble on their feet than usual.

    Given the above and the fact the attached ticket covered 4.21 - 5.21, and the car left within 2 minutes of expiry, it's clear this fits well within reasonable grace periods for a heavily pregnant visitor and to pursue a charge would be in breach of the ICO CoP for ANPR/surveillance cameras, which in turn puts the operator in breach of the BPA Code, too.

    Further, if you are asserting the ticket is not valid due to an issue with the VRN rather than the time parked, I will refer you to the above comments, in addition what has been recorded.

    VRN on Letter to Keeper: AB58 DAD

    VRN on PDT: ADA58

    It's unclear how ECP have truncated this VRN for the purposes of the PDT, but it is clear that both refer to the same VRN, and as you will be aware any partial errors are considered de-minimis. In this instance I would again refer you the BPA CoP:

    21 (21.2)
    Quality checks: before you issue a parking charge notice you must carry out a manual quality check of the ANPR images to reduce errors and make sure that it is appropriate to take action.

    Again, to pursue a charge would be in breach of the ICO CoP for ANPR/surveillance cameras, which in turn puts the operator in breach of the BPA Code, too.

    Yours faithfully,

    Registered Keeper

    Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 17th May 18, 8:44 PM
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    KeithP
    Attached with this appeal is the parking ticket purchased at 4.21pm on the date in question, and valid until 5.21pm.
    I would change this sentence to:
    Attached with this appeal is a copy of the parking ticket purchased at 4.21pm on the date in question, and valid until 5.21pm.
    Do not send them the original ticket.
    .
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 17th May 18, 8:51 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Jonesbo
    I would change this sentence to:
    Attached with this appeal is a copy of the parking ticket purchased at 4.21pm on the date in question, and valid until 5.21pm.
    Do not send them the original ticket.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Thanks, appeal is via ECP website so will send of photo of ticket if that is sufficient in this initial appeal.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 18, 8:51 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    It's unclear how ECP have truncated this VRN for the purposes of the PDT, but it is clear that both refer to the same VRN, and as you will be aware any partial errors are unlikely to be the fault of the driver, more likely to be caused by a sticky or faded key on your old machines, and would in any event be considered de-minimis. In this instance I would again refer you the BPA CoP:
    I suggest the above.

    If all that doesn't fit in the ECP online appeal, cut out the waffle, like 'I'd like to draw to your attention...' and change things like 'the British Parking Associations Code of Practice on Grace Periods' to 'the BPA CoP on Grace Periods', etc, etc.
    • Jonesbo
    • By Jonesbo 17th May 18, 9:11 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Jonesbo
    I suggest the above.

    If all that doesn't fit in the ECP online appeal, cut out the waffle, like 'I'd like to draw to your attention...' and change things like 'the British Parking Associations Code of Practice on Grace Periods' to 'the BPA CoP on Grace Periods', etc, etc.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks, it's ready to go then. Only other thing, should something along these lines be included regarding fact a PDT has clearly been purchased?

    "...as no loss has been recorded by ECP due to a ticket having been purchased..."
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