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  • FIRST POST
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 15th May 18, 12:51 PM
    • 21Posts
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    BoutTime
    BATH RUH - POPLA Appeal Unsuccessful
    • #1
    • 15th May 18, 12:51 PM
    BATH RUH - POPLA Appeal Unsuccessful 15th May 18 at 12:51 PM
    Hi all,

    As per the thread title, I've just had an appeal rejected. I did not feel that either Parking eye or POPLA considered any of the points put forward in my appeal.

    I basically positioned my car by the side of the road adjacent to 6 bays reserved for staff. There was a sign which clearly stated a permit was required to park in any of the six bays with arrows pointing to them.

    But at no time was my car parked in any of these bays and I did not prevent anyone from either entering or leaving them. I stayed in this position for approximately one hour with my engine running and I did not leave my car unattended in this time. I could not turn the engine off as I'd jump started the car before leaving home due to a flat battery.

    The only photographic evidence they appear to have is of me entering and exiting the road which is apparently under the control of Parking Eye where these parking bays are situated. I asked for clarification on where the photos were taken and I received none. In fact the original response from Parking Eye to my informal appeal was just addressed to "sir/madam".

    Is it worth me taking this further? I feel there is a point of principle here as the signage is misleading. If a permit is required to park in a bay that I did not park in, how can I receive a PCN?

    Many thanks in advance.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th May 18, 12:57 PM
    • 19,293 Posts
    • 24,533 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 15th May 18, 12:57 PM
    • #2
    • 15th May 18, 12:57 PM
    how do you propose to "take this further" , the ball is not in your court, not unless you now pay , IN FULL

    if you fail to pay up, its likely PE will issue an MCOL and you can take your arguments to a judge, who will decide one way or the other

    if you lose in court , pay up , IN FULL, within one month , to avoid a CCJ
    Last edited by Redx; 15-05-2018 at 6:29 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th May 18, 3:07 PM
    • 61,760 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 15th May 18, 3:07 PM
    • #3
    • 15th May 18, 3:07 PM
    Is it worth me taking this further?
    Yes, if you mean when PE try to sue you, should you defend? YES.

    Come back when you get a LBCCC and/or a claim to defend.

    If you get Equita letters you can be sure PE are unlikely to sue at this location.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 15th May 18, 3:27 PM
    • 3,193 Posts
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    fisherjim
    • #4
    • 15th May 18, 3:27 PM
    • #4
    • 15th May 18, 3:27 PM
    If that was the basis of your appeals you have totally missed all the advice on here it was bound to fail oh dear!


    Sounds like you were captured on anpr anyway, engine running, not leaving the car so what the car was there!


    If you want to try another tack you could write to Brian Gubb, Director of Estates & Facilities at The RUH they have had many complaints about the way that PE "manage" their car parking.


    But don't hold your breath for a positive outcome.
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 15th May 18, 4:44 PM
    • 21 Posts
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    BoutTime
    • #5
    • 15th May 18, 4:44 PM
    • #5
    • 15th May 18, 4:44 PM
    how do you propose to "take this further2 , the ball is not in your court, not unless you now pay , IN FULL

    if you fail to pay up, its likely PE will issue an MCOL and you can take your arguments to a judge, who will decide one way or the other

    if you lose in court , pay up , IN FULL, within one month , to avoid a CCJ
    Originally posted by Redx
    By taking it further I meant not paying. By going to court am I liable for any additional costs should the court find in favour of Parking Eye?

    I really do not understand what POPLA are doing. The sign clearly states a permit is required to park in any of the 6 bays. And I was not parked in any of them.
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 15th May 18, 5:01 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    BoutTime
    • #6
    • 15th May 18, 5:01 PM
    • #6
    • 15th May 18, 5:01 PM
    Yes, if you mean when PE try to sue you, should you defend? YES.

    Come back when you get a LBCCC and/or a claim to defend.

    If you get Equita letters you can be sure PE are unlikely to sue at this location.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    So I haven't missed the boat so to speak given that both Parking Eye and now POPLA have rejected my appeals? I gather I am now to expect another letter (LBCCC) which I need to check against the PD?

    Thanks.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th May 18, 5:16 PM
    • 9,308 Posts
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    KeithP
    • #7
    • 15th May 18, 5:16 PM
    • #7
    • 15th May 18, 5:16 PM
    So I haven't missed the boat so to speak given that both Parking Eye and now POPLA have rejected my appeals? I gather I am now to expect another letter (LBCCC) which I need to check against the PD?

    Thanks.
    Originally posted by BoutTime
    That's right.

    Bear in mind that you are also likely to receive several harmless letters from debt collector's before that LBC, but post #4 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread gives good guidance on how to deal with them.
    .
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 15th May 18, 6:22 PM
    • 3,193 Posts
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    fisherjim
    • #8
    • 15th May 18, 6:22 PM
    • #8
    • 15th May 18, 6:22 PM
    If they have anpr of you entering and exiting presumably you were on site for a period of time either where you should not have been or where you should have paid!


    Forget about the bays you are barking up the wrong tree, POPLA has passed you blew it, this is an unregulated money scamming industry you are now stuck in a process and will have to follow the flow.


    Or do what I suggested in post 4 if you want to try another approach.


    The regulars on here have seen thousands of these charges you need to realise this is nothing new or out of the ordinary for the entrapment industry of PPC land.
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 15th May 18, 6:30 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    BoutTime
    • #9
    • 15th May 18, 6:30 PM
    • #9
    • 15th May 18, 6:30 PM
    If they have anpr of you entering and exiting presumably you were on site for a period of time either where you should not have been or where you should have paid!


    Forget about the bays you are barking up the wrong tree, POPLA has passed you blew it, this is an unregulated money scamming industry you are now stuck in a process and will have to follow the flow.


    Or do what I suggested in post 4 if you want to try another approach.


    The regulars on here have seen thousands of these charges you need to realise this is nothing new or out of the ordinary for the entrapment industry of PPC land.
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    I realise this. If I stand little chance of a successful outcome in court I'll pay up. Its seems less about right vs wrong and more about loopholes and failure to follow process. To be honest I've had debt collectors chase me before, over a 5 year period for a debt that wasn't mine. The only way I put a stop to it was using identity theft cover provided by my bank. For the sake of 80 I'll pay up and avoid the hassle. I know this will be frowned on by members on here. Thanks anyway.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th May 18, 6:31 PM
    • 19,293 Posts
    • 24,533 Thanks
    Redx
    By taking it further I meant not paying.

    By going to court am I liable for any additional costs should the court find in favour of Parking Eye?
    Originally posted by BoutTime
    you do not have to pay unless a judge says so , after an MCOL battle

    yes , probably the original charge of say 100 and court costs of maybe 75 to 85 -= less than 200 in total
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th May 18, 8:02 PM
    • 61,760 Posts
    • 74,677 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If I stand little chance of a successful outcome in court I'll pay up.
    We consistently help posters win 99% of cases, even against ParkingEye.

    Only two people lost in 2017, out of over 300 who were assisted here (I kept records) and those two people simply had to pay about 175. No repercussions, no CCJ, no effect on anything.

    And all those who won, despite their nerves, LOVED it!

    No risk, so why fold? They might never sue.

    You may as well see them in court and come back to get help, IF that happens. You don't even know if they have the right to sue at this location (some places, PE do not ever sue). You will know, if you get Equita letters, it will go nowhere!

    IF it goes to LBCCC and court, you would be arguing no contract agreed, car not parked in a permit bay, non-compliance with the NHS Car Parking Principles, and non compliance with the ICO CoP on ANPR use; those last two meaning (as you would argue it) that the entire parking regime at this hospital is illegal/unlawful, due to disproportionate use of ANPR 24/7 and a charging operation that conflicts with Government policy.

    That in turn leads to an argument of unfair business practice, breach of the CPUTRs, and misuse of your data as registered keeper. At best, the landowner could have sought damages for trespass, but ParkingEye cannot (and they know from Beavis, that they cannot).

    None of which are arguments will ParkingEye be as comfortable dealing with, as the usual 'I didn't see the signs' drivel defences they probably see.

    Now they have in house solicitors so will appear to be dealing with everything you say, but they won't want a decision that rocks the boat with ANPR use at a Hospital, so your case would be more difficult for them to pursue than most if you show them your hand at LBCCC stage.

    Wait and see if this goes to Equita letters, or a LBCCC. If the latter, reply robustly with our help.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-05-2018 at 8:12 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 15th May 18, 9:16 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    BoutTime
    Wait and see if this goes to Equita letters, or a LBCCC. If the latter, reply robustly with our help.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    So basically the ball is now in their court? If I do not immediately pay they will send one of two letters? What is the point of no return for me? The LBCCC?

    I really appreciate your help.

    Thanks.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th May 18, 9:25 PM
    • 9,308 Posts
    • 9,588 Thanks
    KeithP
    What do you mean by point of no return?

    You would be foolish to pay anything before county court judge orders you to do so.

    Even then it's just a case of paying - which is likely to be less that the claimant wants.
    .
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 12th Aug 18, 9:22 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    BoutTime
    Hi All. I've just received an LBCC. 10 pages in total including a response form. I've had a look through the PD and just want to be sure of how I initially respond to their letter.

    At this point do I have to point out where their LBCC does not comply with the PD and list all of the points?

    Or just reply with a fairly short letter asking them to send an LBCC that DOES comply with the PD and see what they come back with? And then check that against the PD?

    We go on holiday in the next couple of days so I want to respond before we go. Should the letter be sent via registered post or can I send an email?

    Many thanks in advance for your help with this.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Aug 18, 9:31 AM
    • 19,503 Posts
    • 30,849 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 covers what you need to do.

    It's the PAP that's important for you to refer to in formulating your response.

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/pdf/protocols/debt-pap.pdf

    Don't send 'Recorded', such letters can be refused and the PPC has proof they did not receive it. Instead send via first class post with a free Certificate of Posting from your PO counter. If you wish, also send via email, then all corners are covered.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 12th Aug 18, 10:02 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    BoutTime
    Thanks for your reply. So I understand from reading the LBCCC Fightback Guidance thread (specifically in Post #3):

    "You will note that the above letter does not even attempt to point out the various deficiencies of their LBCCC. That comes later, after they have ignored your letter and sent you their normal template FAQ letter! You will then go to post 9 and using that information, you will prepare an Acknowledgment explaining to them exactly why their LBCCC is defective (even taking into account the information contained in the FAQ letter!)"

    This is why I ask whether I have to point out where the LBCC is deficient at this stage, or merely ask for and then wait for them to provide another LBCC which is compliant with the PD?

    And does this mean that until they send this information I am not to complete and return any of the forms they have included with this initial LBCC?

    Thanks again.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th Aug 18, 10:14 AM
    • 37,323 Posts
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    Quentin
    does this mean that until they send this information I am not to complete and return any of the forms they have included with this initial LBCC?

    .
    Originally posted by BoutTime

    Don't ever return those forms!
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 13th Aug 18, 11:30 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    BoutTime
    Good morning All,

    I'm just formulating my response to the LBCCC which states it is fully compliant with the Pre-Action Protocol For Debt Claims. On this PAPA there is no mention of the claimant having to explain their loss and how it was calculated. Can I still refer tothe PRACTICE DIRECTION PRE-ACTION CONDUCT AND PROTOCOLS for this? Specifically Para 6.(a)? Am I right in believing that claimants are still obliged to abide by this?

    Thanks,
    • BoutTime
    • By BoutTime 13th Aug 18, 12:45 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    BoutTime
    Is there anyone happy to have a read of my draft response to the LBCCC I received from ParkingEye?

    Many thanks in advance.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Aug 18, 1:32 PM
    • 9,308 Posts
    • 9,588 Thanks
    KeithP
    Of course the Claimant has to conform with the protocols.

    You do not have to believe the Claimant when he says his LBC conforms and would be unwise to do so. Check it yourself. There is a link to the Pre-Action Protocols for Debt Claims in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    Post your draft response here if you wish.
    .
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