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  • FIRST POST
    • Lz?Kithra
    • By Lz?Kithra 14th May 18, 11:40 AM
    • 39Posts
    • 12Thanks
    Lz?Kithra
    No CCA yet so should I pay?
    • #1
    • 14th May 18, 11:40 AM
    No CCA yet so should I pay? 14th May 18 at 11:40 AM
    I have three creditors to whom I wrote in early February requesting a copy of my CCA. All have replied but have not produced them.

    Link eventually replied a month ago saying they dont have the documents currently, and included a print out of the account statement, adding that I should continue to make the payments.

    PRA, replied in February that they have requested the required information and will contact me with an update as soon as possible. To date I have still heard nothing further from them.

    And idemservicing said that while they acknowledge it cannot be enforced at the moment they will continue to pursue it, and I should take whatever action I feel is appropriate.

    Actually I have two debts with idem and they did manage to send the complete CCA for one of them, so obviously I am continuing to pay that one.

    Therefore, my question is whether it would be wise to send the following letter to each of them?

    WITHOUT PREJUDICE

    I originally sent you a CCA request in early February, about a debt incurred back in 2004, and I received your reply that to date you are unable to find the original copy of it. Your reply also stated that collection on the account would meanwhile be put on hold. However I have continued to make the arranged payments.

    You also state that the balance is still outstanding and that you will continue to pursue it, and that you will not be releasing me from any obligation under the agreement. You then add that I am free to take whatever action I feel is appropriate.

    Therefore, I have decided to cease making payments until such time as you can provide the required copy of the CAA including all its terms and conditions.

    Yours faithfully,

    (I will use the computer to sign this letter)

    Many thanks for any replies and suggestions.
    Liz R
Page 1
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 14th May 18, 12:07 PM
    • 15,252 Posts
    • 14,353 Thanks
    sourcrates
    • #2
    • 14th May 18, 12:07 PM
    • #2
    • 14th May 18, 12:07 PM
    Hi,

    Please be aware they do not have to produce the original signed piece of paper, they can reconstitute a copy of it using information held on there systems (original creditor) however if they do not hold such information, they cannot just make it up.

    Also there is no requirement for a signature on a CCA.

    When companies cannot provide an adequate response to a CCA request, it is usually because they no longer hold any information on their internal systems about that particular account, so are unable to reconstitute a copy, and therefore are unable to comply.

    If you wish to stop your payments, the Consumer credit act allows you to do this.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • Lz?Kithra
    • By Lz?Kithra 14th May 18, 12:12 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Lz?Kithra
    • #3
    • 14th May 18, 12:12 PM
    • #3
    • 14th May 18, 12:12 PM
    Thanks for the info. But as the debts were all prior to 2004 I thought they had to produce a copy of the original CCA with my signature on it. Obviously I don't expect the original document but a copy of it. That's why I thought about ceasing payment until they produce a copy.
    Liz R
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 14th May 18, 12:46 PM
    • 15,252 Posts
    • 14,353 Thanks
    sourcrates
    • #4
    • 14th May 18, 12:46 PM
    • #4
    • 14th May 18, 12:46 PM
    Thanks for the info. But as the debts were all prior to 2004 I thought they had to produce a copy of the original CCA with my signature on it. Obviously I don't expect the original document but a copy of it. That's why I thought about ceasing payment until they produce a copy.
    Originally posted by Lz?Kithra
    No, that has never been a requirement.

    There is a lot of mis-information floating around the internet, so best to take it straight from the horses mouth, all the information is here :

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/77

    No where in this legislation does it say the original signed document must be produced.

    An unsigned copy has always been acceptable, the only real change in legislation occurred in 2007, when the section where the prescribed terms applicable to credit cards, was revoked.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • Lz?Kithra
    • By Lz?Kithra 14th May 18, 1:58 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Lz?Kithra
    • #5
    • 14th May 18, 1:58 PM
    • #5
    • 14th May 18, 1:58 PM
    I didn't realize about that. I maybe got confused because when sending the CCA request forums were suggesting that you didn't put your "real" signature on the letter so that they couldn't try and copy it!


    However, am I right in thinking that without a copy of the CAA (including terms and conditions) they can't go to court to enforce the debt? My debts have been sold on so many times that they probably don't have copies of the CCA.



    And, if they can't go to court without a full copy of the CCA, then would sending the letter I suggested in my first post do any damage to my situation?
    Liz R
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 14th May 18, 2:23 PM
    • 15,252 Posts
    • 14,353 Thanks
    sourcrates
    • #6
    • 14th May 18, 2:23 PM
    • #6
    • 14th May 18, 2:23 PM
    I didn't realize about that. I maybe got confused because when sending the CCA request forums were suggesting that you didn't put your "real" signature on the letter so that they couldn't try and copy it!


    However, am I right in thinking that without a copy of the CAA (including terms and conditions) they can't go to court to enforce the debt? My debts have been sold on so many times that they probably don't have copies of the CCA.



    And, if they can't go to court without a full copy of the CCA, then would sending the letter I suggested in my first post do any damage to my situation?
    Originally posted by Lz?Kithra
    Some unscrupulous debt collectors were known to do that back in the day, just to try to improve their case against you, in reality a signature is not required, so it was a waste of time, and hence an old wife's tale was born.

    The facts you need to be aware of are these, from the moment the creditor received your CCA request, your account was put on hold automatically, as (technically) a dispute had arisen.

    Under the terms of the consumer credit act, your account, at present, cannot be enforced through the courts, as your request is outstanding, it will remain that way until either, the creditor replies with a compliant copy of your credit agreement, or they tell you they cannot comply.

    If they cannot provide anything, then they cannot enforce the debt through the courts until, or if, they do, what they can do is ask you to pay, and report to your credit file.

    A typical scenario of an account where a CCA was not able to be provided would go something like this :

    Creditor does not comply, or tells you they cannot comply, you can then stop paying, they may ask you to pay, you should write telling them that unless they can comply with your request you will not be making any further payments.

    They will either sell the debt, and you will have to go through all this again with another buyer, or they will fade away, and you won`t hear from them again, and eventually the debt becomes statute barred, and disappears from your credit file.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • Lz?Kithra
    • By Lz?Kithra 14th May 18, 2:35 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Lz?Kithra
    • #7
    • 14th May 18, 2:35 PM
    • #7
    • 14th May 18, 2:35 PM
    I wasn!!!8217;t aware that requesting a CAA put the account into dispute, that!!!8217;s interesting. So, currently I have neither a compliant copy of the CCA or been told that they cannot comply. Thus it seems that I don!!!8217;t need to keep paying until they produce something. At which time, if they do, I can negotiate again to make payments. As for my credit file report it!!!8217;s so bad anyway that I don!!!8217;t care what they report to it, LOL.

    One of my debts was with Lowells and, very shortly after they!!!8217;d bought the debt and I requested the CCA, they wrote back to say they didn!!!8217;t have the copy and marked on their letter that my account was zero. So I stopped paying them. I think I!!!8217;ll send that letter saying I won!!!8217;t be paying any more until they comply.

    If they sell the debt on, then I!!!8217;ll just have to renegotiate, or maybe make a F&F settlement offer. And as all my income is from state benefits, and I!!!8217;m not only an OAP but also get PIP and have no assets they won!!!8217;t get much!

    As for it becoming statute barred, I know that takes 6 years so I!!!8217;ll just have to keep my fingers crossed.
    Liz R
  • National Debtline
    • #8
    • 14th May 18, 4:07 PM
    • #8
    • 14th May 18, 4:07 PM
    Hi Lz?Kithra


    If they sell the debt on, then I'll just have to renegotiate, or maybe make a F&F settlement offer. And as all my income is from state benefits, and I'm not only an OAP but also get PIP and have no assets they won't get much!
    Originally posted by Lz?Kithra

    Please note that a CCA request shouldn't be dodged by the creditor simply selling the debt on elsewhere. They shouldn't do this while you have a request outstanding - though it is known to happen, unfortunately.


    Dennis
    @natdebtline
    We work as money advisers for National Debtline and have specific permission from MSE to post to try to help those in debt. Read more information on National Debtline in MSE's Debt Problems: What to do and where to get help guide. If you find you're struggling with debt and need further help try our online advice tool My Money Steps
    • Lz?Kithra
    • By Lz?Kithra 15th May 18, 2:28 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Lz?Kithra
    • #9
    • 15th May 18, 2:28 PM
    • #9
    • 15th May 18, 2:28 PM
    I'm sure none have sold the debt on yet as it was only yesterday that I cancelled my payments, and today sent them the letter saying I was doing so until they fully complied with my CCA request. However, should any then be sold on I will simply start again by sending a CCA request to any new company.
    Liz R
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 15th May 18, 8:00 PM
    • 15,252 Posts
    • 14,353 Thanks
    sourcrates
    should any then be sold on I will simply start again by sending a CCA request to any new company.
    Originally posted by Lz?Kithra
    You do not need to do this twice, once is sufficient.

    You simply inform any new owner of the debt that the request is outstanding and they have bought a debt currently subject to a dispute.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 15th May 18, 8:59 PM
    • 12,686 Posts
    • 9,757 Thanks
    fatbelly
    The pre - april 2007 argument relates to s127(3) which was repealed but not retrospectively. I recently mentioned it here:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73974191&postcount=16

    but note that it did not work for the OP as all the arguments were overruled by the judge, which is always a possibility in real life (rather than online forums)
    • Lz?Kithra
    • By Lz?Kithra 16th May 18, 11:45 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Lz?Kithra
    sourcrates, that's info that's very useful as I didn't realize about it. So if the debts do get sold on that's what I shall tell them.


    fatbelly, thanks for the link. I'll keep it handy in case I need to refer to it again.
    Liz R
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