Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Youngsy1980
    • By Youngsy1980 13th May 18, 10:39 AM
    • 4Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Youngsy1980
    Viagogo - Can I Stop Them Charging Me For Cancelling a Sale?
    • #1
    • 13th May 18, 10:39 AM
    Viagogo - Can I Stop Them Charging Me For Cancelling a Sale? 13th May 18 at 10:39 AM
    Hi, grateful for any advice here.


    I mistakenly purchased 4 tickets to see Orbital in December 2018, found out they weren't the band I thought I had bought when I received them in the post. Contacted Eventim who told me they couldn't refund me and that I should try and sell them privately. Put them on viagogo (was first ticket seller on google, had never sold tickets before, though had looked for tickets previously on there) for what I paid for them but Eventim then refunded me back the money and told me the tickets were cancelled. Using the link that viagogo sent me I tried to cancel the tickets but could see no listing on my account, the whole process just takes you round in circles, you cannot contact them if you have no listing but if the problem is there is no listing then you cannot use their online forms. Found their email address and told them to cancel the order, received a reply telling me I had no listings, went back and forth, my final mail to them was that I should have no listing and anything in my name should be cancelled. Received an email yesterday telling me 2 tickets had sold, managed to find a phone number, eventually found out that I have 2 accounts, one set up as gmail, the other as googlemail. They are now telling me I am going to be charged the full amount of the tickets that I told them to cancel in April because I was logging in using my googlemail address rather than my gmail one. Given that I was using a link provided on their email showing my listing and that I had told them in writing that the order should be cancelled, do I have any recourse here? The incredibly rude customer service agent refused to accept that gmail & googlemail are interchangeable and that I should have known I had different accounts. I have since logged in and cancelled the listing but their T&C's say I am now liable for whatever costs they incur in replacing the tickets (still available via original vendor).


    Any advice gratefully received. Appreciate it.


    Thanks
    Nick
Page 2
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 13th May 18, 6:27 PM
    • 6,895 Posts
    • 14,993 Thanks
    marliepanda
    Why would they have to be mind readers? Particularly if OP told them the listing reference/gave them the link to the listing.

    I've been in similar circumstances (as their customer service agents) and in those circumstances you might ask them if they're sure it was definitely our company (people do sometimes get confused), do they have a reference number, whats their details/if they might have used different details etc.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Considering the OP couldn’t even find his listing on his account I somehow doubt he sent them a link. He said he asked them to make sure there were no active listings ‘in his name’

    There not going to cancel all listings in his name, as I’m sure John smith and peter jones would be rather annoyed if their listings all got cancelled. We’re there any listings under the user name he provided? No.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 13th May 18, 6:30 PM
    • 10,423 Posts
    • 11,757 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    All of our consumer rights come from EU law - all of them.

    Switzerland is not part of the EU etc but they are part of the single market and as such, have to adopt EU laws (at least as far as they pertain to the single market) - although they don't get any input into what those laws are.

    I would've thought everyone would be aware of nuances like that given they've been discussed in detail over the last 2 years since the vote on brexit.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    But you've totally failed to answer the actual questions I asked.

    When translating the EU directive on unfair terms in consumer contracts into law, how do you know that the Swiss government agree with your thinking that a term stating that a company must be contacted by a consumer using their registered e-mail address only is classed as unfair?
    It might be an illegal term under Swiss law, then again it might not be. Just because you are of the opinion that it is an unfair term doesn't mean that the Swiss lawmakers must also share that opinion.
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 13th May 18, 6:48 PM
    • 4,050 Posts
    • 6,992 Thanks
    Fosterdog
    Why would they have to be mind readers? Particularly if OP told them the listing reference/gave them the link to the listing.

    I've been in similar circumstances (as their customer service agents) and in those circumstances you might ask them if they're sure it was definitely our company (people do sometimes get confused), do they have a reference number, whats their details/if they might have used different details etc.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    As marlie has said, it doesn't sound like OP gave them any reference details at all, he just emailed them and asked to cancel the listing, they said they couldn't find a listing on his account, he then says there was some "back and forth" which could well be them doing exactly as you said and trying to identify it to no avail. It may be good customer service to go out of your way like that but there is no legal obligation for a company to have to hold your hand and question every possible scenario to get to the bottom of something like this. It is the customers responsibility to give the company the correct details.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 13th May 18, 8:31 PM
    • 13,002 Posts
    • 10,311 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Considering the OP couldn’t even find his listing on his account I somehow doubt he sent them a link. He said he asked them to make sure there were no active listings ‘in his name’

    There not going to cancel all listings in his name, as I’m sure John smith and peter jones would be rather annoyed if their listings all got cancelled. We’re there any listings under the user name he provided? No.
    Originally posted by marliepanda
    So how would you imagine the conversation going?

    OP asking to cancel, them saying theres nothing to cancel and OP just saying "oh okay then" despite telling us he went "back and forth" with them?



    But you've totally failed to answer the actual questions I asked.

    When translating the EU directive on unfair terms in consumer contracts into law, how do you know that the Swiss government agree with your thinking that a term stating that a company must be contacted by a consumer using their registered e-mail address only is classed as unfair?
    It might be an illegal term under Swiss law, then again it might not be. Just because you are of the opinion that it is an unfair term doesn't mean that the Swiss lawmakers must also share that opinion.
    Originally posted by shaun from Africa
    How did I totally fail to answer your questions? I answered the first question perfectly. As for the 2nd, if you want to prove that swiss statute allows for a retailer to dictate not just what format it comes in but from which identifier (email address, postal address, phone number etc), then you should do the leg work for that - not me.

    But I'll repeat, there is nothing in their terms stipulating that contact must be from the registered email address so its a moot point regardless of the answer.

    As marlie has said, it doesn't sound like OP gave them any reference details at all, he just emailed them and asked to cancel the listing, they said they couldn't find a listing on his account, he then says there was some "back and forth" which could well be them doing exactly as you said and trying to identify it to no avail. It may be good customer service to go out of your way like that but there is no legal obligation for a company to have to hold your hand and question every possible scenario to get to the bottom of something like this. It is the customers responsibility to give the company the correct details.
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    Look I get you guys want to beat OP mercilessly over the head for every way he fails to be perfect but thats not my gig and not why I'm here on MSE.

    Here are the facts:
    1) OP withdrew the offer which means it cannot be accepted in line with switerzlands code of obligations article 9 - the only requirement here is that the withdrawal needs to be communicated either before or immediately after acceptance takes place.
    2) There is no term requiring them to contact them using the registered email address therefore, one cannot be imposed (even if it was allowed by law) retrospectively.


    Now if we want to get into the "what ifs"...perhaps OP didn't provide them with any email address. Perhaps OP emailed them a combination of his name, address, phone number, listing reference. details of the listing etc and they only searched based on the email address that he never gave as part of his details. Would you still say thats OP's fault that they weren't able to locate his listing? Even though they were able to locate it based off the other details but chose not to?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 13th May 18, 9:23 PM
    • 4,050 Posts
    • 6,992 Thanks
    Fosterdog
    So how would you imagine the conversation going?

    OP asking to cancel, them saying theres nothing to cancel and OP just saying "oh okay then" despite telling us he went "back and forth" with them?





    How did I totally fail to answer your questions? I answered the first question perfectly. As for the 2nd, if you want to prove that swiss statute allows for a retailer to dictate not just what format it comes in but from which identifier (email address, postal address, phone number etc), then you should do the leg work for that - not me.

    But I'll repeat, there is nothing in their terms stipulating that contact must be from the registered email address so its a moot point regardless of the answer.



    Look I get you guys want to beat OP mercilessly over the head for every way he fails to be perfect but thats not my gig and not why I'm here on MSE.

    Here are the facts:
    1) OP withdrew the offer which means it cannot be accepted in line with switerzlands code of obligations article 9 - the only requirement here is that the withdrawal needs to be communicated either before or immediately after acceptance takes place.
    2) There is no term requiring them to contact them using the registered email address therefore, one cannot be imposed (even if it was allowed by law) retrospectively.


    Now if we want to get into the "what ifs"...perhaps OP didn't provide them with any email address. Perhaps OP emailed them a combination of his name, address, phone number, listing reference. details of the listing etc and they only searched based on the email address that he never gave as part of his details. Would you still say thats OP's fault that they weren't able to locate his listing? Even though they were able to locate it based off the other details but chose not to?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    I get that you want to help OP, but that doesn't mean the rest of us want to beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect.

    There is obviously a lot none of us know about what actually happened so all we can do is try to fill in the blanks. What we do know is that OP mistakingly bought tickets to the wrong event, then mistakingly set up two accounts with Viagogo (possibly already had one and set up a second), then mistakingly tried to log in and contact them using the wrong account. At what point does it stop being the company's or somebody else's fault that OP has made a catalogue of mistakes? At what point does he have to take some personal responsibility for his own actions?
    • Les79
    • By Les79 13th May 18, 9:38 PM
    • 617 Posts
    • 698 Thanks
    Les79
    I get that you want to help OP, but that doesn't mean the rest of us want to beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect.

    There is obviously a lot none of us know about what actually happened so all we can do is try to fill in the blanks. What we do know is that OP mistakingly bought tickets to the wrong event, then mistakingly set up two accounts with Viagogo (possibly already had one and set up a second), then mistakingly tried to log in and contact them using the wrong account. At what point does it stop being the company's or somebody else's fault that OP has made a catalogue of mistakes? At what point does he have to take some personal responsibility for his own actions?
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    I agree with this. Personal responsibility goes a long way.

    unholyangel, your posts are good in an academic sense but OP needs practical help. I'm not having a go at you like, you provide some useful info, but OP is trying to do a mix of weaseling out of their responsibility and argue a thin case. I'm of the mindset that people in that situation should have to PAY for solicitors etc to provide the level of advice that you give + to (most importantly, and the part you don't help with) put that plan into place.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 13th May 18, 9:53 PM
    • 6,895 Posts
    • 14,993 Thanks
    marliepanda
    So how would you imagine the conversation going?

    OP asking to cancel, them saying theres nothing to cancel and OP just saying "oh okay then" despite telling us he went "back and forth" with them?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    He did tell us there was a back and forth. From that back and forth the OP still didn’t realise ‘wait, maybe these listings aren’t on this account’ and then went on to email them about the same account they’d had the back and forth about.

    So you say there must have been an enlightening conversation, but expect viagogo to magically know it was a different account yet not expecting the OP to realise he’d made two accounts... so not that enlightening at all...
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 13th May 18, 10:32 PM
    • 13,002 Posts
    • 10,311 Thanks
    unholyangel
    I get that you want to help OP, but that doesn't mean the rest of us want to beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect.

    There is obviously a lot none of us know about what actually happened so all we can do is try to fill in the blanks. What we do know is that OP mistakingly bought tickets to the wrong event, then mistakingly set up two accounts with Viagogo (possibly already had one and set up a second), then mistakingly tried to log in and contact them using the wrong account. At what point does it stop being the company's or somebody else's fault that OP has made a catalogue of mistakes? At what point does he have to take some personal responsibility for his own actions?
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    You've said that a few times now but as I said, we don't know which email OP used so that's another thing we're speculating on.

    Also, if you're not looking to beat him for not being perfect, then why is the only argument being made against him the fact he had more than 1 account? People have a habit of doing that on this board. They don't give a stuff what the law actually says or what the OP's consumer rights are - they just want to beat the OP over the head with any failure whether real or imagined.

    When I put forth a possible version of events in my earlier post and asked if you'd feel the same if that were the circumstances, whats your reply to that?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • JReacher1
    • By JReacher1 13th May 18, 10:41 PM
    • 3,044 Posts
    • 4,175 Thanks
    JReacher1
    I use viagogo all the time to sell tickets. You provide a name and email address, nothing more.

    If you contacted them with the wrong email address it would be impossible to find your listing as names are not unique, only email addresses are.

    Unfortunately OP you have no legal recourse here and must take the blame. Is there any way you can reverse the cancellation of your tickets and sell them to the viagogo buyer?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 13th May 18, 10:44 PM
    • 4,715 Posts
    • 6,085 Thanks
    waamo
    Viagogo are touts. Pure and simple. They hide behind their Swiss corporate status and play fast and loose with consumer law.

    I think getting anything from them will be an uphill task regardless of the rights and wrongs.
    This space for hire.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 13th May 18, 10:44 PM
    • 13,002 Posts
    • 10,311 Thanks
    unholyangel
    He did tell us there was a back and forth. From that back and forth the OP still didn’t realise ‘wait, maybe these listings aren’t on this account’ and then went on to email them about the same account they’d had the back and forth about.

    So you say there must have been an enlightening conversation, but expect viagogo to magically know it was a different account yet not expecting the OP to realise he’d made two accounts... so not that enlightening at all...
    Originally posted by marliepanda
    Of course OP didn't realise - OP was unaware they had 2 accounts.

    The difference is that viagogo should know how their system works - that you need to be logged into your account to see your listing.

    Also, generally you can only be liable for something that is within your control. Therefore OP cannot be liable for any limitations or failures of viagogos system or practices - only viagogo can.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 13th May 18, 10:45 PM
    • 10,423 Posts
    • 11,757 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    As for the 2nd, if you want to prove that swiss statute allows for a retailer to dictate not just what format it comes in but from which identifier (email address, postal address, phone number etc), then you should do the leg work for that - not me.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Why should I have to do any "leg work"?
    You are the one who clearly stated that what Viagogo was asking for was an unfair term (thus an illegal term) and unless you can show showing to back this claim up, it can only be your opinion.


    I get that you want to help OP, but that doesn't mean the rest of us want to beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    I haven't seen anyone post anything that shows that they wish to "beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect", simply people posting differing opinions on how the law may look at the actions of Viagogo.

    The CRA allows a consumer in the UK up to 6 years to chase a retailer for breach of contract where as in most other EU countries they only have up to 2 years.
    This means that EU directives can be implemented differently in different countries so don't you think it a possibility that something which might be classed as an unfair term in the UK may be totally acceptable in Switzerland?
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 13th May 18, 11:13 PM
    • 16,234 Posts
    • 23,092 Thanks
    antrobus
    ...

    The CRA allows a consumer in the UK up to 6 years to chase a retailer for breach of contract where as in most other EU countries they only have up to 2 years.
    This means that EU directives can be implemented differently in different countries so don't you think it a possibility that something which might be classed as an unfair term in the UK may be totally acceptable in Switzerland?
    Originally posted by shaun from Africa
    Consumer Rights Act 2015? No, it's the Limitation Act 1980.

    It's not only 2 years in "most other EU countries". Here's a source.
    https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/1-518-8770?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Defaul %20%20t)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1

    Ireland 6 years, Italy 10 years, Spain 5 years ....

    is there an EU directive on limitation periods? I'm not aware of one. And Switzerland is not a member of the EU.
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 13th May 18, 11:26 PM
    • 16,234 Posts
    • 23,092 Thanks
    antrobus
    ...
    Switzerland is not part of the EU etc but they are part of the single market and as such, have to adopt EU laws (at least as far as they pertain to the single market) - although they don't get any input into what those laws are.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Switzerland isn't a member of the EEA (single market) either. It has a series of bilateral agreements with the EU that give it limited access to the single market. Neither is it obliged to adopt EU laws.

    Switzerland voluntarily adapts to EU laws from time to time
    https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/

    I'm not sure why this all matters. But if it does, you all might as well get it right.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th May 18, 11:38 PM
    • 10,675 Posts
    • 11,060 Thanks
    KeithP
    is there an EU directive on limitation periods? I'm not aware of one.
    Originally posted by antrobus
    In this context, yes - DIRECTIVE 1999/44/EC.

    Article 5 para (1) refers:
    1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the
    lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from
    delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights
    laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that
    period shall not expire within a period of two years from the
    time of delivery.
    .
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 14th May 18, 1:31 AM
    • 13,002 Posts
    • 10,311 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Switzerland isn't a member of the EEA (single market) either. It has a series of bilateral agreements with the EU that give it limited access to the single market. Neither is it obliged to adopt EU laws.

    Switzerland voluntarily adapts to EU laws from time to time
    https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/

    I'm not sure why this all matters. But if it does, you all might as well get it right.
    Originally posted by antrobus
    I did get it right. If you read your own linked page it says that Switzerland accepts EU law in return for market access.

    https://www.eda.admin.ch/missions/mission-eu-brussels/en/home/key-issues/adoption-eu-laws.html

    The agreements governing market access are as a rule based on existing EU law in which Switzerland has undertaken to enact equivalent provisions or to adopt existing EU law.
    Also, theres article 120 of the Federal Act of Private International Law (swiss law) which states that contracts with consumers will be governed by the rule of law of their habitual residence if:
    1. Its accepted in that state (not applicable here)
    2. If the provider advertises or makes an offer in that state (viagogo do advertise here)
    3. The provider made the consumer go abroad to complete the contract (again, not applicable here).
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 14th May 18, 1:45 AM
    • 13,002 Posts
    • 10,311 Thanks
    unholyangel
    I use viagogo all the time to sell tickets. You provide a name and email address, nothing more.

    If you contacted them with the wrong email address it would be impossible to find your listing as names are not unique, only email addresses are.

    Unfortunately OP you have no legal recourse here and must take the blame. Is there any way you can reverse the cancellation of your tickets and sell them to the viagogo buyer?
    Originally posted by JReacher1
    Now thats not true - even just for signing up, they ask for a phone number.

    When you go through to sell the tickets, you'll then be asked ticket details (face value, seat/row number), address, potentially paypal or bank details and also for a credit/debit card (and it must be a valid one because they check).
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 14th May 18, 5:51 AM
    • 4,050 Posts
    • 6,992 Thanks
    Fosterdog
    You've said that a few times now but as I said, we don't know which email OP used so that's another thing we're speculating on.

    Also, if you're not looking to beat him for not being perfect, then why is the only argument being made against him the fact he had more than 1 account? People have a habit of doing that on this board. They don't give a stuff what the law actually says or what the OP's consumer rights are - they just want to beat the OP over the head with any failure whether real or imagined.

    When I put forth a possible version of events in my earlier post and asked if you'd feel the same if that were the circumstances, whats your reply to that?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Have you actually read the OP? He literally tells us that he had the tickets for sale under an account using his gmail account but was trying to log in and contact them through his account using the googlemail account instead, he somehow also has an account under the googlemail email so they could find no record of it from that.

    There is no imagined failure here on OPs behalf, he has made mistake after mistake with this entire transaction and that is perfectly clear from the post where he tells us that.

    As for your other possible scenarios, it would depend on exactly what was discussed and whether or not OP could pass any relevant security checks to prove he was the account holder.

    I don't like sites like Viagogo, at all, I refuse to use them and buy into the ticket tout world in any way, I'd be glad if they went out of business, however in this case I'm really struggling to see what they have done wrong, it really does seem to be all of OPs doing.
    • JReacher1
    • By JReacher1 14th May 18, 7:17 AM
    • 3,044 Posts
    • 4,175 Thanks
    JReacher1
    Now thats not true - even just for signing up, they ask for a phone number.

    When you go through to sell the tickets, you'll then be asked ticket details (face value, seat/row number), address, potentially paypal or bank details and also for a credit/debit card (and it must be a valid one because they check).
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    My apologies that is not true at all. It is disingenuous to make up facts to try and support your argument.

    You do not need to provide a phone number to register an account on Viagogo. Please register for an account and you will then see that you are mistaken.

    In addition the address you enter is a pick up address for the tickets not an account address. If his address is an office (like mine is) then it can potentially be linked to many accounts.

    Bank details are held securely so it would not be possible for a customer services operator to search for an account tied to a specific bank account number as they do not have access to that data, while the PayPal account will be the same email address as the registered email address

    The only unique data on a viagogo account is email address so this must be provided correctly to find an account.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th May 18, 7:28 AM
    • 2,406 Posts
    • 3,363 Thanks
    NeilCr
    I've just signed up out of interest.

    It wouldn't let me register without a phone number. Apart from that (like most other sites) it wanted my name, email address and a password.

    And I had to verify that email address.

    In your settings you can have a secondary phone number but not a secondary email address.
    Last edited by NeilCr; 14-05-2018 at 7:34 AM.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,069Posts Today

7,971Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Wow early days, only a couple of thousand of votes in, but so far the majority of both remainers and leavers on thi? https://t.co/qUMXXbeLOf

  • RT @ej_mac: @MartinSLewis oh dear, how on earth do people come to such conclusions..... I voted leave, I read all Martins points and used t?

  • Yay we have a poll bingo winner Everyone cross out your "hidden agenda/bias" squares on your cards https://t.co/LgPSfqzSB0

  • Follow Martin