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    • deadendwaterfall
    • By deadendwaterfall 12th May 18, 1:50 PM
    • 36Posts
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    deadendwaterfall
    Given how this country is so quick to sell off everything.......
    • #1
    • 12th May 18, 1:50 PM
    Given how this country is so quick to sell off everything....... 12th May 18 at 1:50 PM
    Howcome no foreign banking companies have tried taking over say Lloyd's Banking Group or Barcklays for example like what Sabadell did with TSB in 2015? I'm aware they'll have shareholders based outside the UK, but what I mean is say for example Lloyd's becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of say for example a French banking company.

    Not that I'd want it to happen of course, the more companies that stay British owned, the better.
Page 1
    • Zanderman
    • By Zanderman 12th May 18, 2:27 PM
    • 1,525 Posts
    • 4,024 Thanks
    Zanderman
    • #2
    • 12th May 18, 2:27 PM
    • #2
    • 12th May 18, 2:27 PM
    Howcome no foreign banking companies have tried taking over say Lloyd's Banking Group or Barcklays for example like what Sabadell did with TSB in 2015? I'm aware they'll have shareholders based outside the UK, but what I mean is say for example Lloyd's becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of say for example a French banking company.
    Originally posted by deadendwaterfall
    Firstly, how do you know they haven't?
    Secondly, why do you think they would?
    Thirdly, why do you think someone on this forum has the answer?
    Fourthly, why would it be an issue anyway, a bank's a bank?
    (and UK-operated banks hardly have an outstanding record in morality and competency, so there's no reason to be overly fond of them just because they're 'British')
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 12th May 18, 4:16 PM
    • 1,892 Posts
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    ValiantSon
    • #3
    • 12th May 18, 4:16 PM
    • #3
    • 12th May 18, 4:16 PM
    Howcome no foreign banking companies have tried taking over say Lloyd's Banking Group or Barcklays for example like what Sabadell did with TSB in 2015?
    Originally posted by deadendwaterfall
    I think you are somewhat confused. Neither Barclays nor Lloyds are "British owned" in any meaningful way. They are both publicly traded companies and have many owners from all over the world. They are both listed on the London Stock Exchange, but that doesn't mean that they are "British owned".

    TSB was a relatively small player (total assets of around 42.5 billion) and therefore more easily bought by another company. Barclays (total assets of around 1.133 trillion) and Lloyds (total assets of around 812.109 billion) are huge banks and the cost of buying them out is a disincentive to do so. (Barclays and Lloyds are both FTSE 100 companies, while TSB is a long way off that market capitalisation).

    I'm aware they'll have shareholders based outside the UK, but what I mean is say for example Lloyd's becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of say for example a French banking company.
    Originally posted by deadendwaterfall
    See above.

    Not that I'd want it to happen of course, the more companies that stay British owned, the better.
    Originally posted by deadendwaterfall
    They aren't "British owned" in any meaningful sense.

    I think that you are also confusing the privatisation of nationally owned industries with the sale of private companies.
    Last edited by ValiantSon; 12-05-2018 at 6:20 PM. Reason: Typo
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 12th May 18, 4:21 PM
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    jonesMUFCforever
    • #4
    • 12th May 18, 4:21 PM
    • #4
    • 12th May 18, 4:21 PM
    I have often asked this question myself to be honest.
    Bearing in mind that after next year when the PPI bill will be over and the Lloyds capital in such rude good health it must be an attractive target for one or two of the world's biggest banks?

    Might be a fillip to the share price if somebody tried?
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 12th May 18, 4:30 PM
    • 7,167 Posts
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    eskbanker
    • #5
    • 12th May 18, 4:30 PM
    • #5
    • 12th May 18, 4:30 PM
    the more companies that stay British owned, the better.
    Originally posted by deadendwaterfall
    What makes you say this? There are clear advantages to the UK economy if banks operating in the UK pay their business taxes here and employ plenty of UK residents, but, especially given the regulatory requirements to operate via UK-registered entities, what difference do you believe the location of ultimate corporate ownership makes?
    • le loup
    • By le loup 12th May 18, 5:23 PM
    • 3,808 Posts
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    le loup
    • #6
    • 12th May 18, 5:23 PM
    • #6
    • 12th May 18, 5:23 PM
    what difference do you believe the location of ultimate corporate ownership makes?
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    Well, it could be a long post but that's not my style.

    A British registered company, generally, will pay tax, will worry about political pressure on keeping jobs, will do it's R&D in Britain and, if it invest abroad will bring profits home and improve the balance of payments.

    I'm sure there are people who think only the market should be followed - because it knows best - and want companies to do whatever they want unencumbered by interfering busybodies like government.

    What other country allows all of it's silverware to be sold to the highest bidder? None as far as I know - but they are wrong and we are the country that knows best?

    I doubt it.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 13th May 18, 1:06 AM
    • 7,167 Posts
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    eskbanker
    • #7
    • 13th May 18, 1:06 AM
    • #7
    • 13th May 18, 1:06 AM
    A British registered company, generally, will pay tax, will worry about political pressure on keeping jobs, will do it's R&D in Britain and, if it invest abroad will bring profits home and improve the balance of payments.
    Originally posted by le loup
    But in the context of the difference between Lloyds Banking Group plc being listed on the London stock exchange versus being a wholly-owned subsidiary of Johnny Foreigner Inc, which of those aspects are likely to differ in any meaningful sense, given that the latter scenario would still entail the creation of Lloyds UK Holdings or similar? I'd already covered the taxation and jobs angles but R&D (in the specific context of the UK market) would still need to be here and the balance of payments would already have been boosted spectacularly by a massive sale....
    • le loup
    • By le loup 13th May 18, 9:25 AM
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    le loup
    • #8
    • 13th May 18, 9:25 AM
    • #8
    • 13th May 18, 9:25 AM
    the balance of payments would already have been boosted spectacularly by a massive sale....
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    That is presenting the same problem as privatisation for it's own sake. A quick short term boost instead of a steady, long term, annual income.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 13th May 18, 10:56 AM
    • 7,167 Posts
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    eskbanker
    • #9
    • 13th May 18, 10:56 AM
    • #9
    • 13th May 18, 10:56 AM
    That is presenting the same problem as privatisation for it's own sake. A quick short term boost instead of a steady, long term, annual income.
    Originally posted by le loup
    Sure, that's true but it's still largely a hypothetical concern because as far as I can see LBG doesn't have particularly significant income streams from abroad....
    • k12479
    • By k12479 13th May 18, 5:02 PM
    • 399 Posts
    • 659 Thanks
    k12479
    Howcome no foreign banking companies have tried taking over say Lloyd's Banking Group or Barcklays...for example Lloyd's becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of say for example a French banking company.
    Originally posted by deadendwaterfall
    When most bank's existing IT systems appear to be terrible, TSB being only the latest example, trying to integrate two major banks in different countries to make savings would seem hugely expensive and doomed to failure. And, given the national nature of retail banking, there aren't many other obvious synergies where savings could be made or opportunities for growth.

    Plenty of foreign banks have entered the UK market from Sweden, Nigeria, India, France, etc. It appears a strategy of organic rather than acquisitive growth is the preferred approach.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 13th May 18, 6:23 PM
    • 7,167 Posts
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    eskbanker
    When most bank's existing IT systems appear to be terrible, TSB being only the latest example, trying to integrate two major banks in different countries to make savings would seem hugely expensive and doomed to failure. And, given the national nature of retail banking, there aren't many other obvious synergies where savings could be made or opportunities for growth.

    Plenty of foreign banks have entered the UK market from Sweden, Nigeria, India, France, etc. It appears a strategy of organic rather than acquisitive growth is the preferred approach.
    Originally posted by k12479
    Acquisition has also been used - apart from Sabadell's purchase of TSB, other examples that spring to mind are Santander's acquisitions of Abbey National and Bradford & Bingley, and National Australia Bank's purchase of Clydesdale/Yorkshire.
    • k12479
    • By k12479 13th May 18, 7:51 PM
    • 399 Posts
    • 659 Thanks
    k12479
    Acquisition has also been used - apart from Sabadell's purchase of TSB, other examples that spring to mind are Santander's acquisitions of Abbey National and Bradford & Bingley, and National Australia Bank's purchase of Clydesdale/Yorkshire.
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    Certainly true. Although I recall Santander being the worst for customer service following its takeover of Abbey National (proof of the difficulty of integration, perhaps?) and National Australia Bank subsequently exited its acquisition. Apart from TSB/Sabadell they were also in another era, whereas today we have unknowns like RCI and well-knowns like Goldman Sachs starting from scratch rather than taking over established incumbents.
    • realaledrinker
    • By realaledrinker 13th May 18, 11:35 PM
    • 1,576 Posts
    • 537 Thanks
    realaledrinker
    Nobody has mentioned Brexit. As UK banks stand to lose their 'passporting rights' to trade seamlessly with the EU, why would a foreign bank want to invest in a UK bank? I work for a US bank with a massive presence in the City but they have offloaded jobs to Dublin and Paris, including 50% of the roles in my team.
    Ethical moneysaver
    • Heng Leng
    • By Heng Leng 14th May 18, 2:54 PM
    • 4,526 Posts
    • 1,416 Thanks
    Heng Leng
    Nobody has mentioned Brexit. As UK banks stand to lose their 'passporting rights' to trade seamlessly with the EU, why would a foreign bank want to invest in a UK bank? I work for a US bank with a massive presence in the City but they have offloaded jobs to Dublin and Paris, including 50% of the roles in my team.
    Originally posted by realaledrinker
    It's far from clear that the UK will actually leave the EEA.
    This setup includes EU Single Market benefits such passporting.

    Also, in the case of Lloyds - they have just converted their German branch (of BOS) into a German banking licence subsidiary. The Netherlands for RBS.

    I'll also leave aside the question of Scotland / NI having their own arrangements - within or outwith a UK framework.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 14th May 18, 5:39 PM
    • 58,528 Posts
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    Thrugelmir
    Howcome no foreign banking companies have tried taking over say Lloyd's Banking Group or Barcklays for example like what Sabadell did with TSB in 2015?
    Originally posted by deadendwaterfall
    Lloyds was forced to divest itself of accounts by the EU. This was in response to the merger with HBOS in 2008. To do so. Lloyds split some branches away from the main group. By default customers were moved. Sabadell bought the business it wasn't a takeover.
    Financial disasters happen when the last person who can remember what went wrong last time has left the building.
    • realaledrinker
    • By realaledrinker 15th May 18, 1:07 PM
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    • 537 Thanks
    realaledrinker
    . Sabadell bought the business it wasn't a takeover.
    Originally posted by Thrugelmir

    Define 'takeover'. TSB is now a 100% owned subsidiary of Sabadell so it fits my definition at any rate.
    Ethical moneysaver
    • Jogle
    • By Jogle 15th May 18, 2:01 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Jogle
    Lloyds was forced to divest itself of accounts by the EU. This was in response to the merger with HBOS in 2008. To do so. Lloyds split some branches away from the main group. By default customers were moved. Sabadell bought the business it wasn't a takeover.
    Originally posted by Thrugelmir
    You've missed out the part where TSB was floated and traded on the LSE. Sabadell the bought all the shares. If buying all the shares isn't a takeover, I'm not sure what is.

    It was planned by Lloyds Banking Group to split what became TSB off and for it to be bought straight from LBG (Co-Op and Virgin were the two most likely to purchase), that was the original intention of Project Verde.

    That didn't happen (with Co-Op not being able to buy the business because it almost went under) and so Project Verde then moved on to building TSB Bank as a separate bank to be floated on the LSE with LBG originally retaining over 50% of the shares (it had to do so for the first few months as TSB was still on LBG's group VAT registration) and then LBG reducing its shareholding to meet EU requirements.
    • Heng Leng
    • By Heng Leng 15th May 18, 4:12 PM
    • 4,526 Posts
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    Heng Leng
    You've missed out the part where TSB was floated and traded on the LSE. Sabadell the bought all the shares. If buying all the shares isn't a takeover, I'm not sure what is.

    It was planned by Lloyds Banking Group to split what became TSB off and for it to be bought straight from LBG (Co-Op and Virgin were the two most likely to purchase), that was the original intention of Project Verde.

    That didn't happen (with Co-Op not being able to buy the business because it almost went under) and so Project Verde then moved on to building TSB Bank as a separate bank to be floated on the LSE with LBG originally retaining over 50% of the shares (it had to do so for the first few months as TSB was still on LBG's group VAT registration) and then LBG reducing its shareholding to meet EU requirements.
    Originally posted by Jogle
    Slight correction - it didn't create TSB, it just re-branded Lloyds TSB Scotland (already a separate bank) and bolted some South of the border branches / all Cheltenham and Gloucester branches. Hence TSB is registered in Edinburgh.

    The Commission basically told LBG to sell either Lloyds TSB Scotland or Bank of Scotland - they had originally planned to merge them.
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