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  • FIRST POST
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 12th May 18, 8:47 AM
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    bxboards
    Paypal Unauthorised Payment bank reversal after 11 months
    • #1
    • 12th May 18, 8:47 AM
    Paypal Unauthorised Payment bank reversal after 11 months 12th May 18 at 8:47 AM
    Hi

    I've just had an Paypal bank reversal for a transaction just under a year ago. Its just under 4 figures and naturally Paypal took the money straight out of my account. The Paypal e-mail says: 'the payment you received was reversed by the sender's bank', it is genuine as a Case has been opened against me in the Paypal resolution centre.

    I shipped it by UPS and the problem is, after all this time the UPS tracking number no longer works, so I can't prove I sent or that it was delivered (although I know it was)

    I do have an e-mail from the buyer via Ebay message thanking me for the delivery, and still have a copy of the UPS address label for the shipping, but with tracking no longer available, I think I'm going to be down just under 1k, as a label on it's own is no proof I sent it. I've used UPS for years via collection and drop-off and have never been given anything on paper etc to say it was sent, so I struggling with this.

    Any advice?
Page 1
    • RFW
    • By RFW 12th May 18, 9:20 AM
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    RFW
    • #2
    • 12th May 18, 9:20 AM
    • #2
    • 12th May 18, 9:20 AM
    Contact UPS. I'd bet they hold tracking details longer than appear online. Perhaps even Paypal can access longer standing UPS tracking. I'd certainly give them the tracking if you haven't already done so. It's hardly your fault that it's timed out.

    It's going back a while but I had something similar happen and the buyer contacted me and paid. I can't remember the details but something had gone wrong with his bank account and a few Paypal chargebacks ended up happening that he couldn't stop. So worth politely contacting the buyer.
    .
    • soolin
    • By soolin 12th May 18, 9:57 AM
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    soolin
    • #3
    • 12th May 18, 9:57 AM
    • #3
    • 12th May 18, 9:57 AM
    Hi

    I've just had an Paypal bank reversal for a transaction just under a year ago. Its just under 4 figures and naturally Paypal took the money straight out of my account. The Paypal e-mail says: 'the payment you received was reversed by the sender's bank', it is genuine as a Case has been opened against me in the Paypal resolution centre.

    I shipped it by UPS and the problem is, after all this time the UPS tracking number no longer works, so I can't prove I sent or that it was delivered (although I know it was)

    I do have an e-mail from the buyer via Ebay message thanking me for the delivery, and still have a copy of the UPS address label for the shipping, but with tracking no longer available, I think I'm going to be down just under 1k, as a label on it's own is no proof I sent it. I've used UPS for years via collection and drop-off and have never been given anything on paper etc to say it was sent, so I struggling with this.

    Any advice?
    Originally posted by bxboards
    That's awful, I'd get onto paypal in the first instance and ask them why this has been allowed outside of their 180 day window. I know there are some exceptions but it is not unknown for paypal to make a serious error and forget their rules, especially when they are likely to lose out.

    Then try the route that RFW suggests.

    I would also be onto the buyer about this, point out that a fraudulent claim has been made and that you will obviously be reporting this to the Police and perhaps someone has accessed their accounts to make this fraudulent claim and you thought you should warn them before the police get involved. Point out that unfortunately as you have proof of delivery (cough) the claim will have to be made personally against them in the court, so they may want to check their accounts to see who has had access and is doing this. I actually had someone back down on me at this point before, I never accused them of anything and gave them the way out that they might also be the victim, and they came straight back with - don't go to the Police, I'll sort this out as I think I was hacked.

    If the bluff doesn't work then I would be sending a letter before action to the buyer and take this further.

    Good luck!
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • RFW
    • By RFW 12th May 18, 10:43 AM
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    RFW
    • #4
    • 12th May 18, 10:43 AM
    • #4
    • 12th May 18, 10:43 AM
    That's awful, I'd get onto paypal in the first instance and ask them why this has been allowed outside of their 180 day window.
    Originally posted by soolin
    Good advice. Make sure you call them and don't use messaging. On the phone they're pretty good, or at least can be. They seem to give some of the telephone operators some autonomy on what they can do, so, in theory, they could resolve it quickly.
    .
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 12th May 18, 10:52 AM
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    bxboards
    • #5
    • 12th May 18, 10:52 AM
    • #5
    • 12th May 18, 10:52 AM
    Thanks to both of you.

    I understood the 180 day limit was for SNAD or INR, but this is a chargeback or reversal which I believe can be made at any time. As far as I know, if you tell a bank a payment is fraudulent, they have to return the money to the originating bank account without question, so Paypal are clawing it back from me.

    https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account
    • soolin
    • By soolin 12th May 18, 11:16 AM
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    soolin
    • #6
    • 12th May 18, 11:16 AM
    • #6
    • 12th May 18, 11:16 AM
    Thanks to both of you.

    I understood the 180 day limit was for SNAD or INR, but this is a chargeback or reversal which I believe can be made at any time. As far as I know, if you tell a bank a payment is fraudulent, they have to return the money to the originating bank account without question, so Paypal are clawing it back from me.

    https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account
    Originally posted by bxboards
    I understood though that this still had to be within the 180 day window for paypal, otherwise paypal took the claim over. However, I find paypal one of the difficult sites to negotiate trying to find the actual policy, every time I hit on what I think is the right bit it reverts to paypal US.

    I get this far in ebay UK and then it just stops being helpful.

    https://www.paypal.com/gb/selfhelp/article/what-is-a-chargeback,-and-why-did-i-get-one-faq2036
    Last edited by soolin; 12-05-2018 at 11:19 AM.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • soolin
    • By soolin 12th May 18, 11:26 AM
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    soolin
    • #7
    • 12th May 18, 11:26 AM
    • #7
    • 12th May 18, 11:26 AM
    Found something:

    https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/chargebacks

    The maximum time a buyer has to file a chargeback with their credit card company is typically 120 days after the expected delivery of the agreed goods or services. Certain exceptions may apply.

    Note the exceptions may apply which has no links and no further explanations!
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 12th May 18, 11:34 AM
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    bxboards
    • #8
    • 12th May 18, 11:34 AM
    • #8
    • 12th May 18, 11:34 AM
    Found something:

    https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/chargebacks

    The maximum time a buyer has to file a chargeback with their credit card company is typically 120 days after the expected delivery of the agreed goods or services. Certain exceptions may apply.

    Note the exceptions may apply which has no links and no further explanations!
    Originally posted by soolin
    Paypal are requesting info from me - the e-mail tells me the money has already been returned to the buyer's bank and I've been debited the amount - if I want it back via seller protection I have to provide proof of postage - which I no longer have as the UPS tracking number which would have shown the 'proof of postage' part needed for Seller Protection doesn't work. The tracking now shows as invalid.

    The delivery address was to a shipping company, not a residential address, so I have no way to get a Letter Before Action to them either.
    • RFW
    • By RFW 12th May 18, 8:22 PM
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    RFW
    • #9
    • 12th May 18, 8:22 PM
    • #9
    • 12th May 18, 8:22 PM
    Paypal are requesting info from me - the e-mail tells me the money has already been returned to the buyer's bank and I've been debited the amount - if I want it back via seller protection I have to provide proof of postage - which I no longer have as the UPS tracking number which would have shown the 'proof of postage' part needed for Seller Protection doesn't work. The tracking now shows as invalid.
    Originally posted by bxboards
    It may show to you as invalid but worth submitting it and pointing out the problem. I had a quick look (I use UPS a lot) and it seems they have archived shipment data that's accessible to account holders. So it should be somewhere that you can access.
    How did you buy the UPS service?

    If you have the date of delivery and/or despatch it will still be in their system in some form.
    .
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 13th May 18, 8:00 AM
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    bxboards
    It may show to you as invalid but worth submitting it and pointing out the problem. I had a quick look (I use UPS a lot) and it seems they have archived shipment data that's accessible to account holders. So it should be somewhere that you can access.
    How did you buy the UPS service?

    If you have the date of delivery and/or despatch it will still be in their system in some form.
    Originally posted by RFW
    I got the label via Shutl - I've contacted them (before I posted here) and they do not seem optimistic the tracking or proof of sending can be recovered after nearly a year.
    • ballisticbrian
    • By ballisticbrian 15th May 18, 9:35 AM
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    ballisticbrian
    I have never been in that exact situation, but I have found on phoning PayPal they have waived most of my sub 20 chargebacks for a certain type of fraud, or I've been able to upload a proof of posting scan.


    I wonder if a copy of your shutl invoice (email) would help? What I mean is, doesn't Shutl only charge you if the label is used. i.e. it must track into their system in order for the cost to appear on your invoice (just a guess)?
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 15th May 18, 10:05 AM
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    bxboards

    I wonder if a copy of your shutl invoice (email) would help? What I mean is, doesn't Shutl only charge you if the label is used. i.e. it must track into their system in order for the cost to appear on your invoice (just a guess)?
    Originally posted by ballisticbrian
    Thanks, I uploaded the Shutl invoice a few days ago - unfortunately knowing how picky Paypal are, I suspect they will say its not acceptable as the Invoice doesn't contain the tracking number, only a reference number which I can't find on the UPS label they supply. It does contain the buyer's postcode with the date sent, which correlates to the UPS label used.

    I hope that Paypal would look at all this - after all I've done nothing wrong, I'm a not party to the buyer's arrangement with their bank - I sent goods worth just under 1k about 11 months ago, and am pretty unhappy about this. I always keep a float in my Paypal, so the money was deducted immediately, without waiting for the proof of postage stuff. I do not believe this payment was not authorized by the buyer.
    • ballisticbrian
    • By ballisticbrian 15th May 18, 10:18 AM
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    ballisticbrian
    Looking at it from PayPal's point of view, they would have to look at whether these details and proofs would stand up in court, because at the end of the day, their systems and processes have to reflect that possibility (or face loads of court cases). It's also not your fault that the case is so old it's no longer tracking on shutl / UPS site.
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 15th May 18, 10:45 AM
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    bxboards
    Looking at it from PayPal's point of view, they would have to look at whether these details and proofs would stand up in court, because at the end of the day, their systems and processes have to reflect that possibility (or face loads of court cases). It's also not your fault that the case is so old it's no longer tracking on shutl / UPS site.
    Originally posted by ballisticbrian
    Should I lose this, it'll certainly go to court! me vs. Paypal too be honest. If Paypal do decide to reimburse the buyer, I can guarantee it won't me paying for it (in the end)

    On the balance of probabilities, you'd think it was open and shut, I have a postage label, and invoice showing postage label used and billed to me to the buyer's postcode and an Ebay message thanking me for the delivery. Unfortunately with the UPS tracking not working, and the invoice not showing the tracking number, there is wiggle room if they want to shaft me.
    • RFW
    • By RFW 15th May 18, 11:33 AM
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    RFW
    How you find it via Shutl and UPS is another matter but UPS keep all their 'out of date' tracking offline. I'd assume Paypal would be aware of this.

    How have you got on with Paypal when you called?
    .
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 16th May 18, 11:46 AM
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    bxboards
    How you find it via Shutl and UPS is another matter but UPS keep all their 'out of date' tracking offline. I'd assume Paypal would be aware of this.
    Originally posted by RFW
    Paypal always want to see online tracking unfortunately but I've now managed to get a Proof of Delivery scan pdf from UPS via Shutl, so fingers crossed I have enough now.
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 16th May 18, 9:24 PM
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    bxboards
    Well the UPS POD did the trick - Paypal gave me back the just under 1k they'd helped themselves to a few days back.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 16th May 18, 9:36 PM
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    soolin
    Well the UPS POD did the trick - Paypal gave me back the just under 1k they'd helped themselves to a few days back.
    Originally posted by bxboards
    Well done, good result!
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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