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    • Rev_EB
    • By Rev_EB 11th May 18, 8:59 PM
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    Rev_EB
    PCN NTK from Vehicle Control Services
    • #1
    • 11th May 18, 8:59 PM
    PCN NTK from Vehicle Control Services 11th May 18 at 8:59 PM
    Sorry if I'm asking a question that's already been answered elsewhere, but I need a quick opinion on what to do regarding a PCN received by a member of my family today from VCS, as I'm just about to go on holiday for a fortnight and haven't really got time to research all the threads before I go.

    It was issued for a parking session in Birmingham and the reason given is that the car was "parked without payment of the parking tariff". Although it's nearly a month ago now, and the driver doesn't still have the parking ticket, they are SURE they did pay. But if not, do VCS have the means to prove it? And should the keeper of the vehicle (who wasn't the driver) just ignore the PCN, as most people on the forum seem to recommend?
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th May 18, 9:02 PM
    • 8,083 Posts
    • 7,955 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #2
    • 11th May 18, 9:02 PM
    • #2
    • 11th May 18, 9:02 PM
    And should the keeper of the vehicle (who wasn't the driver) just ignore the PCN, as most people on the forum seem to recommend?
    Originally posted by Rev_EB
    No, most people don't say that.


    The keeper needs to send the blue text appeal from post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread. Send it unchanged. No alterations or additions necessary.

    That's it.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th May 18, 9:20 PM
    • 59,528 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 11th May 18, 9:20 PM
    • #3
    • 11th May 18, 9:20 PM
    haven't really got time to research all the threads before I go.
    Just read the NEWBIES sticky thread, then.

    And should the keeper of the vehicle (who wasn't the driver) just ignore the PCN, as most people on the forum seem to recommend?
    Don't tell us, you Googled it and read 2012/13 posts...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Rev_EB
    • By Rev_EB 11th May 18, 9:33 PM
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    Rev_EB
    • #4
    • 11th May 18, 9:33 PM
    • #4
    • 11th May 18, 9:33 PM
    Thanks for helpful replies.

    One query about the suggested wording of the text appeal. How do I know that "Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence of the parking charge ...." if the driver didn't and can't easily check it?! And will it weaken the appeal if the keeper leaves that sentence out?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th May 18, 9:46 PM
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    KeithP
    • #5
    • 11th May 18, 9:46 PM
    • #5
    • 11th May 18, 9:46 PM
    You've had my opinion.

    You can of course choose to make any alterations you wish.

    Not sure there are any PPC signs that meet that criteria.

    If the driver didn't notice, was that because the signs were not prominent enough?

    I hope you're not expecting to win this appeal.
    Last edited by KeithP; 11-05-2018 at 9:48 PM.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th May 18, 9:47 PM
    • 59,528 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 11th May 18, 9:47 PM
    • #6
    • 11th May 18, 9:47 PM
    No PPC signs are clear, it's a typical scam they use.

    You can't weaken an appeal to an IPC firm, and you'd know that from other threads.

    There is no appeal that cancels it so get used to it, you are in for the long haul.

    Read other threads first, to understand why you are sending this, which will NOT get it cancelled.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Rev_EB
    • By Rev_EB 27th May 18, 1:53 PM
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    Rev_EB
    • #7
    • 27th May 18, 1:53 PM
    What next?
    • #7
    • 27th May 18, 1:53 PM
    Keeper appealed using the standard wording on the Newbie thread and received a reply from VCS in which (unsurprisingly) no further photos of the vehicle were provided as requested, and they say that to process the appeal they need the driver to appeal directly.

    Driver is pretty confident that they did pay but has no ticket to prove it. Keeper has decided however that if driver DID forget to pay, or display ticket, they'd prefer to pay reduced PCN rather than have it hanging over their head for months. But the photos on NTK only show entry and exit times, and don't therefore help in determining whether driver made a mistake. So does anyone know from experience whether VCS will have such photographic evidence and whether they are likely to reveal it at this stage?
    • Tara M
    • By Tara M 27th May 18, 3:06 PM
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    Tara M
    • #8
    • 27th May 18, 3:06 PM
    • #8
    • 27th May 18, 3:06 PM
    Actually no. The driver MUST NOT appeal directly because the "contract" is between the driver and the company, you should never divulge the identity of the driver. This is where any court claim will fail as they will not be able to prove that the keeper is liable.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 27th May 18, 4:10 PM
    • 18,395 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 27th May 18, 4:10 PM
    • #9
    • 27th May 18, 4:10 PM
    This is where any court claim will fail as they will not be able to prove that the keeper is liable.
    Originally posted by Tara M
    Unless, of course, you are appearing in front of this lady Judge!

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5844450

    And there are other cases of the Judge making an assumption on the balance of probabilities as to who the driver was, despite not being named.

    Court is a lottery - no one can categorically predetermine the outcome.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Rev_EB
    • By Rev_EB 29th May 18, 11:28 AM
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    Rev_EB
    Evidence
    Thanks for the helpful replies so far. My original question was about what evidence VCS will have of the alleged contravention (namely parking without payement). The photos on the NTK merely show that the driver entered and exited the car park, not that they failed to pay. If the driver DID fail to pay, or to display the ticket, or to enter the correct reg number, will VCS definitely have photographic evidence for this?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th May 18, 1:08 PM
    • 18,395 Posts
    • 29,125 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    My original question was about what evidence VCS will have of the alleged contravention (namely parking without payement).
    Ask VCS via a SAR, which, under GDPR, is now free to issue.

    The photos on the NTK merely show that the driver entered and exited the car park
    Standard fare for ANPR camera capture.

    If the driver DID fail to pay, or to display the ticket, or to enter the correct reg number, will VCS definitely have photographic evidence for this?
    Likely to have printout of VRM input, linked to payment amount, linked to ANPR camera capture of entry and exit.

    But we can't tell you what they actually have, only you can find that out via a SAR.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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