Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Bentles
    • By Bentles 11th May 18, 3:23 PM
    • 12Posts
    • 8Thanks
    Bentles
    ECP - 25mins over - appeal failed
    • #1
    • 11th May 18, 3:23 PM
    ECP - 25mins over - appeal failed 11th May 18 at 3:23 PM
    Hi.

    I think what you guys are doing here is wonderful.

    Unique situation here has the car is owned by my friend who I pay monthly so I could get a mortgage, when she got the pcn I had no choice but to admit I was driving as I didnít want her to go through all this

    My appeal was simple. I arrived on site at 17:06, left at 19:31 and paid for a two hour ticket ad 19:13. When I got back to my car my phone wasnít charged so I had to wait 15 mins for my sat Nav. I didnít know where I was going and I didnít realise there was npr.

    Today my appeal failed. I want to make sure my appeal to popla is successful and would appreciate all help available.

    Signage was clear. Theyíve sent a pic of my number plate.

    Any advice appreciated. Iím worried Iím going to be one of those 1% who has to pay
Page 2
    • Bentles
    • By Bentles 15th May 18, 5:50 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Bentles
    Bevis is def mentioned but It won't let me paste in here.

    I've updated with the following.

    Vehicle Registration: xxxxxxxx
    POPLA Ref No.xxxxxxxx


    I wish to appeal the PCN relating to the above on the following grounds:

    The minimum grace period was not allowed by the operator
    The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible
    No evidence of Landowner Authority
    No Evidence of Period Parked
    The ANPR system is neither reliable or accurate
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th May 18, 8:35 PM
    • 59,465 Posts
    • 72,641 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The ANPR system is neither reliable or accurate
    Nope, not that one.

    The one you will find when you search for ANPR Code ICO surveillance camera POPLA as your keywords. I reckon you will find a ready made one quite quickly, as everyone will have used the same templates you intend to use.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bentles
    • By Bentles 17th May 18, 3:14 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Bentles
    Popla have advised me ECP have replied to my appeal and have given me 7 days to respond:

    In **** appeal to POPLA he stated the following:
    !!!61623; No grace period given
    !!!61623; Signage is not clear
    !!!61623; No landowner authority
    !!!61623; No Evidence of Period Parked
    !!!61623; The ANPR system is neither reliable nor accurate
    Euro Car Parks and would like to respond to the points raised in **** appeal with the following:
    !!!61623; Section 18.3 of the British Parking Association!!!8217;s (BPA) code of practice explains that signs !!!8220;must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signage on site is clear, when parking on private land it is the driver!!!8217;s responsibility to read the signage displayed and parked accordance with the terms and conditions as stated. (Figure 1)
    !!!61623; Euro Car Parks have provided photographic evidence showing that the appellant remained at the site for 2 hours and 25 minutes (Figure 2)
    !!!61623; Signage on site is clear, when parking on private land it is the drivers responsibility to read the signage displayed and parked accordance with the terms and conditions as stated
    !!!61623; The signage clearly states the terms and conditions of parking, all drivers are required to purchcase a valid pay and display ticket for the duration of their stay. Signage is visble when entering and inside of the car park and when entering private land it would be **** responsibility to read the terms and conditions and adhere to them.
    !!!61623; The above car park is pay and display!!!8211; a valid pay and display ticket must be purchased and placed in your vehicle to cover the duration of your stay on site.
    !!!61623; Figure 3 is a payment transaction of £2.00 made on the day in question for the VRM MA15LKZ.
    !!!61623; There are 2 pay and display machines on site as well as the option to Pay By Phone.
    !!!61623; According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 !!!8211; car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes. I can confirm that Euro Car Parks have given **** the suitable grace
    period of 10 minutes and was issued a Parking Charge Notice.
    !!!61623; Figure 4 is where I can confirm our PCN is POFA compliant.
    !!!61623; Figure 5 shows Euro Car Parks Holdings authorises Euro Car Parks to carry out Parking
    Enforcement
    !!!61623; We have calculated this sum as a genuine pre-estimate of our losses as we incur significant costs in managing the parking location to ensure compliance to the stated terms & conditions and to follow up on any breaches of these that are identified. The parking charge in this instance was established after consideration of the following costs which we incur on each notice issued;
    - Wages and salaries including Employers National Insurance Contributions
    - IT systems, software, licences and peripherals
    - DVLA fees and processing costs
    - Costs in preparing and sending PCNs !!!8211; Stationary, Postage and Printing
    - Legal, Accounting and other Professional Costs
    - Human Resources
    - Premises Costs
    - Vehicle and Telephone Costs
    - Loss of Pay and Display Ticket revenue generating from paying customers (where
    applicable)
    - Loss of purchase revenue to Retail Outlets within the car park
    !!!61623; Any form of parking ticket or !!!8216;notice!!!8217; is issued under the law !!!8216;of trespass and Contract Law!!!8217;. A driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking contract sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price.
    !!!61623; The contract (signage) clearly states the extra charges are that the driver will incur and have to pay if they decide to break the contract terms !!!8722; for example, by parking longer than the time paid for or exceeding the maximum time limit applicable.
    !!!61623; With regards to the reference to !!!8220;Pre-Estimate of Loss/breach of consumer contracts 1999.!!!8221; Please be advised that the Supreme Court has made judgement (04/11/15) that clearly sets out the issue of parking charge notices on private land (law of contract applies) and in particular pre-estimate of loss. The parking charge notice is enforceable on the basis that it protected a legitimate interest when the driver failed to adhere to the terms and conditions and was not extravagant, exorbitant nor unconscionable. The parking charge is not an unenforceable penalty and does not breach the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.
    - It!!!8217;s the driver!!!8217;s responsibility to check the signage prior to leaving the vehicle on site.
    - Contract Law Applies
    !!!61623; With regards reliability/misreads of the ANPR system at this site and many private and
    council car parks who use this type of operation. The ANPR cameras are Police NAAS compliant, each individual camera is 93.1% accurate as specified by the supplier, it is well known (to include Police contraventions) that the information will not always be 100% correct, therefore there is always a possibility that there may be an error, however, if an issue is raised, following our complaints procedure a full investigation will be carried out by our Technical Department as quickly as possible with full information being supplied. Our Technical Teams visit the site/s regularly and monitor camera alignment and all on site equipment, back office systems are monitored 24/7. All equipment is fully tested before site installation, and fully tested for a number of weeks, information is processed and tested prior to any operation going live.
    The signage clearly states the terms and conditions of parking, all drivers are required to purchase a valid pay and display ticket for the duration of their stay. Signage is visble when entering and inside of the car park and when entering private land it would be **** responsibility to read the terms and conditions displayed before parking.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 17th May 18, 3:50 PM
    • 2,831 Posts
    • 1,723 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    If you are posting using a phone or Apple device, please turn off Smart punctuation - it makes your posts hard to read. Ta
    • Bentles
    • By Bentles 17th May 18, 3:54 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Bentles
    Is it worth mentioning that there is no image showing my vehicle within parking lines? I see that a court settlement happened on these grounds?

    My concern is my initial stupid appeal specifically mentions that I did park.
    • Bentles
    • By Bentles 17th May 18, 4:08 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Bentles
    first draft of my response:
    Unfortunately ECP has not responded to any of my points of appeal. When Discussing grace periods there is no evidence of when parking commenced or ceased, or to that point there is no evidence of parking at all. Whilst in my initial appeal I state that I had parked at the site, I request that ECP show CCTV of specifically how long I was parked for.

    I'd ask POPLA to consider all points raised under my complaint that the signage was not clear.

    As for no evidence of period parked, whilst I have already touched on this point the image supplied by ECP in figure1 shows my car outside of ECP's car park in question and this would be my main point of defence if ECP were to pursue this case. I challenge ECP to clearly prove what time I was parked from and to on the date in question, and put to ECP that Figure 2 simply shows my vehicle on a public road where I could have been legally stopped for any kind of reason such as traffic.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 17th May 18, 4:50 PM
    • 3,113 Posts
    • 4,757 Thanks
    fisherjim
    first draft of my response:
    Unfortunately ECP has not responded to any of my points of appeal. When Discussing grace periods there is no evidence of when parking commenced or ceased, or to that point there is no evidence of parking at all. Whilst in my initial appeal I state that I had parked at the site, I request that ECP show CCTV of specifically how long I was parked for.

    I'd ask POPLA to consider all points raised under my complaint that the signage was not clear.

    As for no evidence of period parked, whilst I have already touched on this point the image supplied by ECP in figure1 shows my car outside of ECP's car park in question and this would be my main point of defence if ECP were to pursue this case. I challenge ECP to clearly prove what time I was parked from and to on the date in question, and put to ECP that Figure 2 simply shows my vehicle on a public road where I could have been legally stopped for any kind of reason such as traffic.
    Originally posted by Bentles

    They don't use CCTV it's ANPR a completely different animal, it clocks your VRN in and out thus time on site.


    Forget about parking POPLA will agree with the PPC that your VRN was recorded as on site for the agreed time, and it would be hard to justify driving around without parking for 2hrs 25mins anyway.


    You can argue grace periods before and after parking but they will say 25 mins is outside of those limits.
    • Bentles
    • By Bentles 17th May 18, 4:53 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Bentles
    So stick to signage? I'm not sure they've done enough in their defence to completely rule out a successful appeal.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th May 18, 5:02 PM
    • 18,491 Posts
    • 23,411 Thanks
    Redx
    look for ANY issues that support your version of events and where they have shot themselves in the foot , you cannot add new evidence, but you can query their evidence where necessary

    look for their evidence on

    BPA CoP compliance (or failures)
    LANDOWNER CONTRACT compliance (or failures)
    SIGNAGE compliance (or failures)
    NO evidence of cameras recording the actual parking event
    GRACE PERIODS failures

    start a short rebuttal based on other popla rebuttals from this year, including the above , bearing in mind the rebuttal portal only allows 2000 characters, so no waffle

    you could easily have found this recent example with a simple quick search of the forum

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5834175&page=3
    Last edited by Redx; 17-05-2018 at 5:14 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Bentles
    • By Bentles 22nd Jun 18, 5:58 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Bentles
    My appeal has been upheald by popla!!! Thanks everyone!

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    The appellant has indicated that he was the driver on the date of the parking incident, 12 April 2018. I will therefore be considering his liability as driver of the vehicle. As the driver has been identified, I do not need to consider the provisions laid out in the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. When entering private land, motorists are expected to comply with the terms and conditions. The operator has provided images of the signage laid out at the site. The terms and conditions sign states: ďCharges apply 24 hours a day Monday to Sunday including bank holidays. Monday to Saturday Day Tariff (06:00 hours to 17:59 hours) Up to 2 hour £2.00 Up to 4 hour £2.50Ē The appellant states that the signs in the car park are not prominent, clear or legible. I have reviewed Section 18 of The British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice for operators which states: ďSpecific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understandĒ I note the operatorís signs (on page 24 of the operatorís pack) detailing the terms and conditions of the car park are dated 23 April 2018. As this is after the parking incident, I am unable to accept these as evidence and cannot be satisfied that these signs were displayed at the site on the date of the parking incident, 12 April 2018. By issuing the appellant with a PCN, the operator has implied that the appellant had not complied with the terms and conditions of the car park in question. The burden of proof rests with the operator to show that the appellant has not complied with the terms and conditions. Without evidence that the terms and conditions signs were in place on the date of the PCN, I am not able to conclude that the appellant, has not complied with the terms and conditions. In this case, the operator has not provided any evidence to POPLA that the signage was in place on the date in question. I am therefore not satisfied that the operator has issued the PCN correctly. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal. I note the appellant has raised several other grounds of appeal. However, as I am allowing the appeal for the reason detailed above, I do not consider it necessary to comment on these.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jun 18, 6:11 PM
    • 59,465 Posts
    • 72,641 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I note the operator!!!8217;s signs (on page 24 of the operator!!!8217;s pack) detailing the terms and conditions of the car park are dated 23 April 2018. As this is after the parking incident, I am unable to accept these as evidence and cannot be satisfied that these signs were displayed at the site on the date of the parking incident, 12 April 2018.

    In this case, the operator has not provided any evidence to POPLA that the signage was in place on the date in question.
    Hahaha, well done!

    Their evidence photos were dated 11 days after the event and the Assessor decided that's not good enough!

    Please do add a short reply on the POPLA Decisions sticky thread, telling everyone who PPC you beat and pasting that decision there too (but broken up into several paragraphs please, for ease of reading there). Plus add a link to this thread.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,886Posts Today

7,808Users online

Martin's Twitter