Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Reviloed
    • By Reviloed 10th May 18, 7:18 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Reviloed
    Parking fine "no permit" - Gladstones
    • #1
    • 10th May 18, 7:18 PM
    Parking fine "no permit" - Gladstones 10th May 18 at 7:18 PM
    Hi All,

    I have read the newbie thread but it has slightly confused me so I do apologies in advance if anything here is in the wrong place.

    The story is my mother works in a residential area where you need permits to park. She has worked here for like 13 years now, on 03/01/2017 Gemini parking solutions argued that there was no permit on her car. We ignored their original letter, and then after a while though we should respond so asked for pictures of the car with no permit, to this we got no response, more letters come through, in which we responded send pictorial evidence.

    It was only when we had a court letter come through and in which i can onlly believe we submitted our defense of "we have not seen any pictures so we will not pay until these are shown clearly that there is not permit"that some got sent to us about 2 weeks ago (laughable)

    Once reviewing these pictures the center of the dashboard is completely impeded by light and a tree reflection so you cannot see if their is a permit there or not.

    We have sent this to Gladstones who are now on the case and thye have come back stating we now owe 269.50 even though on the letter we were given with a witness statement etc only states 160

    At this moment in time i am at a lose for how to move forward, I have the permit and can get written evidence from the two people who my mother works for that she works there and has a permit.? what else should i do
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th May 18, 7:23 PM
    • 18,481 Posts
    • 23,404 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 10th May 18, 7:23 PM
    • #2
    • 10th May 18, 7:23 PM
    if the court letter was an MCOL from Northampton CCBC, plus if that was the defence written , then you will be on a sticky wicket when it gets to court

    it will cost you a lot of money to alter the defence to something more appropriate

    trying to help you after all the mistakes have already been made is like trying to knit water in the desert

    sounds like this needs to go to court, a witness statement to try to salvage the defence and the added costs objected to

    if this was an MCOL, you should have a court form with the name of the court and court date, from the CCBC in Northampton

    if this was an LBC , then it needs to be rebutted

    YOU HAVE NOT BEEN VERY CLEAR WHERE THIS SAGA IS AT
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Reviloed
    • By Reviloed 10th May 18, 7:40 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Reviloed
    • #3
    • 10th May 18, 7:40 PM
    • #3
    • 10th May 18, 7:40 PM
    So, here is the exact defence

    I am writing to express my concern with this ticket and how it has been handled, as I have expressed my want for pictorial evidence of my car wrongly parked, yet non of this has been shown nor have i been sent this evidence, All i have i been provided with is a blank form despite the solicitors letter stating the form will be filled out. I have a valid visitors permit which i use at all times when parking in this vicinity.

    Also, this has been sent by the small claims court address Northampton NN1 2LH

    I have also just been shown that on their letter expressing fees they will be pushing for 244 yet in my email conversation with one of their solicitors he is claiming the 269.50.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 10th May 18, 8:56 PM
    • 3,325 Posts
    • 4,863 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #4
    • 10th May 18, 8:56 PM
    • #4
    • 10th May 18, 8:56 PM
    I am writing to express my concern with this ticket and how it has been handled, as I have expressed my want for pictorial evidence of my car wrongly parked, yet non of this has been shown nor have i been sent this evidence, All i have i been provided with is a blank form despite the solicitors letter stating the form will be filled out. I have a valid visitors permit which i use at all times when parking in this vicinity.
    Originally posted by Reviloed
    That is NOT a defence in any way shape or form. If that's really what you submitted in response to an MCOL claim, then you've made your job really, really hard for yourself. A defence states why you don't owe them what they claim. It is not a debate or a request for information.
    • Reviloed
    • By Reviloed 10th May 18, 10:50 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Reviloed
    • #5
    • 10th May 18, 10:50 PM
    • #5
    • 10th May 18, 10:50 PM
    I realise that now but at the time I did not as all we really all we did want is pictures and we would have paid the original fine to be done with it .

    So we are pretty much back tracking about what we are going to say at court and if we can bring new evidence such as the permit, the fact that the picture is not of good quality, and the written statements from the two people my mother works for.

    Do you think theirs a possibility we can turn this around or are we honestly better to pay the 269.50.
    Last edited by Reviloed; 10-05-2018 at 10:52 PM. Reason: adding more stuff.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th May 18, 11:01 PM
    • 59,463 Posts
    • 72,628 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 10th May 18, 11:01 PM
    • #6
    • 10th May 18, 11:01 PM
    Yes you can turn it around and even if you lost, it would be unlikely to be over 200.

    No risk, so it's a no-brainer to continue.

    Your defence was woeful but at WS stage you can certainly file evidence including the permit, and other evidence of permission to park, and hope the Judge allows such evidence.

    The NEWBIES thread tells you when each stage happens. Read the 2nd post of it now.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Reviloed
    • By Reviloed 11th May 18, 9:42 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Reviloed
    • #7
    • 11th May 18, 9:42 AM
    • #7
    • 11th May 18, 9:42 AM
    Hi so just read the thread again an I think this is the stage your referencing.(below are the points in the thread) so I should read the links posted their, and start drafting my defence again. Once i have drafted my defence again, should i post it here? Thank you for all the help so far, i know i sound like a noob, these kind of things always confuse me.


    (a) a copy of the Beavis case sign as a comparison to show how awful the small print sign was in yours case
    (b) photos proving the scarce and illegible small print signs in your case, a view showing the lack of entrance signs, etc.
    (c) a video of how it looks from a car is good evidence! You can get a passenger to hold a camera or phone and record the lack of signs seen to the point of parking.
    (d) a copy of Schedule 4 of the POFA - there is a link to it in post #1 above. The Judge will NOT have this to hand & is unlikely to be familiar with it. This is only applicable if you are defending as keeper.
    (e) a copy of Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 'Understanding Keeper Liability' if defending as keeper.
    (f) a copy of your lease or tenancy agreement!if!this is an 'own space' or 'block of flats' dispute where YOU have primacy of contract.
    (g) the case transcripts that support your argument (get them from the Parking Prankster's case law page), e.g. if arguing prohibitive 'forbidding parking' signs which offer no contract a driver can accept, you need PCM v Bull; if arguing that this is a residential space where the tenant/leaseholder has already been granted (impliedly or explicitly) the right to park or unload you need Jopson v Home Guard (a persuasive Appeal case heard by a Senior Circuit Judge) and PACE v Mr N, etc.
    (h) the IPC!or!BPA Code of practice, where it supports your case (e.g. the grace periods section 13 of the CoP in a BPA few minutes' 'overstay' claim).
    (i) a Pay & Display ticket if you have it in such a case, e.g. if arguing it was displayed.!DO NOT ARGUE 'no loss'!
    Last edited by Reviloed; 11-05-2018 at 9:46 AM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 11th May 18, 10:26 AM
    • 2,219 Posts
    • 3,719 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    • #8
    • 11th May 18, 10:26 AM
    • #8
    • 11th May 18, 10:26 AM
    Your defence is not the end of the world. In lawyer-speak it puts them to full proof and claims that any contract was complied with because a permit WAS displayed.


    You've seen their photos. They don't show the permit wasn't displayed. Ergo they can't prove their claim it wasn't. Your mum can do her WS at the relevant stage stating how meticulous she always is to display her permit and that ont he day in question her permit was displayed (if there was a windscreen NtD then she can say how she clearly remembers receiving the ticket and being baffled because her permit was right there on display - if no windscreen pcn then all she can really say is how she meticulously displays it every day - this could be fleshed out with a description of how her permit is affixed to her windscreen permanently, or how she keeps it on the passenger seat to place on the dashboard every day.... you get the gist).


    So I really don't think your defence is the end of the parking universe as we know it and is perfectly salvageable. It makes all the necessary points. Just put it into more formalised language in your WS (when you eventually get to that stage).


    You might also write to Gladstones pointing out that the photograph shows nothing of the sort and their client cannot make out its claim, of which your mother puts it to full proof of every aspect.


    The only thing your defence misses out is complaining about the add-ons, but since you're saying that you defend the entire thing on the basis a permit was displayed, then these sorts of points can be made in your WS and then the SA.


    I think your keeper points are irrelevant if mum is already outed as the driver, plus she has a good driver's defence so why hide behind being the keeper? same with the arguments about signage. I'd keep this really simple: I did display a permit and they can't show I didn't.
    Last edited by Loadsofchildren123; 11-05-2018 at 3:01 PM.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th May 18, 2:59 PM
    • 59,463 Posts
    • 72,628 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 11th May 18, 2:59 PM
    • #9
    • 11th May 18, 2:59 PM
    You can't re-send a new defence.

    Have you already completed the DQ N180 saying which dates you are unavailable and which local court is nearest to you? That form comes next, if you haven't been sent it yet by the court, you will.

    And the NEWBIES thread tells you EXACTLY how to fill it in, which tick-boxes.

    Until this case is allocated to your local Court and you get a hearing date in the Summer, you are nowhere near the stage to submit evidence or witness statements (including your own WS).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Reviloed
    • By Reviloed 12th May 18, 11:23 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Reviloed
    Hi,

    So, just checked out that form now and im sure this has not been sent to us and we have not filled one out. So whilst i'm waiting for the form should i draft some sort of defence we will use in court (what we are going to say etc) or is their other stuff we should be doing.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th May 18, 11:53 AM
    • 36,295 Posts
    • 20,546 Thanks
    Quentin
    As advised in #7 await the DQ

    If and when this gets to that stage nothing to do

    You could read up on court procedure to see what's to come. See the newbies FAQ #2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th May 18, 1:14 AM
    • 59,463 Posts
    • 72,628 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ring the court to check where your DQ is, in case it got lost in the post and if so, you could lose by default for not replying.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 14th May 18, 3:13 PM
    • 2,219 Posts
    • 3,719 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You can't do another defence, several of us have told you that.


    But I don't actually think your defence is the end of the world, it basically makes your defence, albeit colloquially and briefly.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

348Posts Today

3,627Users online

Martin's Twitter