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    • v022980
    • By v022980 10th May 18, 6:01 PM
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    v022980
    Letter Before Claim - SCS/UKPC
    • #1
    • 10th May 18, 6:01 PM
    Letter Before Claim - SCS/UKPC 10th May 18 at 6:01 PM
    Hi,

    I've read through the Newbies Thread and while I found some useful advice, I couldn't find anything directly relating to my case. I will outline the particulars below:

    - Received 5 PCN's from UKPC since August 2017 for parking in a Residential Car-Park, required key-fob entry. (4 for failure to display visitors permit, 1 x parking outside the designated parking bays).

    - The keeper is a resident on the site, and hold a visitors pass, but just forgot to put it on the dashboard. The parking outside designated bays notice refers to parking on a roadway at the front of the building where there are no markings, and the vehicle wasn't blocking any traffic at all.

    - The keeper received NTK's and Debt Collection Letters for all 5 PCN's however ignored them, as they had read outdated advice on websites that suggested they were unenforceable, and would 'just go away'.

    - Today the keeper received a Letter Before Claim from SCS Law acting on behalf of UKPC Ltd. This has asked them to pay the 800 owing (160 per PCN!!!). This also asks for a response detailing the following:
    -I agree I owe the debt.
    -I owe some of the debt but not all of it.
    -I don't know whether I owe the debt.
    -I dispute the debt.

    -The keeper's tenancy agreement makes no reference to the parking situation within the car-park, and they have never received any written guidance from the MA about the visitor's passes they received when they moved in should be used. Not sure if this helps but it is something that was noticed as pertinent in other threads.

    I am beginning to get a bit worried that they may take this to court, and aren't merely scare-mongering anymore, so any advice RE: Next Steps, or simply some reassurance would be appreciated.

    I hope you guys can help,

    Thanks.
    Last edited by v022980; 10-05-2018 at 6:47 PM. Reason: privacy
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th May 18, 6:07 PM
    • 19,963 Posts
    • 25,278 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 10th May 18, 6:07 PM
    • #2
    • 10th May 18, 6:07 PM
    firstly , edit the last post , no "ME , MYSELF & I"

    use the DRIVER and the KEEPER only, no need for specifics

    then you need to issue a rebuttal to the LBCCC by using a recent rebuttal since oct 2017 , like the daniel san one and adapt it , or alternatively there is a recent thread where LOC123 has been helping someone to hone their rebuttal, so find and read that one

    also read the JOHNNERSH post about residential cases

    at LBC stage you keep playing letter tennis or email tennis

    you should also be complaining to the MA to get them all cancelled and to get the PPC to call off the dogs, plus getting evidence like pictures of signs , tenancy agreements etc

    then read up on "own space" cases like LINK PARKING and the JOPSON court case etc

    there is plenty of grist for the mill here, you are not the only person with these issues , so look at those other threads to get the best advice

    do not look at anything over 18 months old however
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th May 18, 6:51 PM
    • 10,728 Posts
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    KeithP
    • #3
    • 10th May 18, 6:51 PM
    • #3
    • 10th May 18, 6:51 PM
    Can anyone guess your real name from your forum username?

    If so, you are best advised to get your forum username changed to something more anonymous.

    The MSE Forum Guide explains how to do that:
    Q. How can I change my username?

    A. In most circumstances, this is not permitted.

    The only reason we will change your username is if it puts your privacy at risk. This usually means you've inadvertently registered using your name, email address or something that gives away your identity within your username.

    If you fall into this category, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com and request that it is changed, giving three alternative usernames in order of preference.
    .
    • v022980
    • By v022980 10th May 18, 6:53 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    v022980
    • #4
    • 10th May 18, 6:53 PM
    • #4
    • 10th May 18, 6:53 PM
    I would hope that my username doesn't give away my real identity. However I will take the hint! Thanks.
    • v022980
    • By v022980 10th May 18, 7:27 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    v022980
    • #5
    • 10th May 18, 7:27 PM
    • #5
    • 10th May 18, 7:27 PM
    All of the above links that I've gone and found are already at the defence stage. Should I be asking UKPC to provide evidence of permissions to ticket on this land etc? To provide all evidence they hold on each of the PCN's?

    I understand I will need to draft a full and robust defence in due course, I was just wondering what I should be asking from them in this instance.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th May 18, 7:36 PM
    • 10,728 Posts
    • 11,152 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 10th May 18, 7:36 PM
    • #6
    • 10th May 18, 7:36 PM
    At this stage you should be asking them for all that you are entitled to.

    In post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread there is a link to the pre-action protocol for debt claims. It's the fourth link in that post. You need to read that.

    The first three links in post #2 of that NEWBIES thread are to robust responses to LBCs.

    Everything in that post above the bold words "If you get court claim," is relevant to the stage you are at.

    Not sure what more you want.
    .
    • v022980
    • By v022980 10th May 18, 7:37 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    v022980
    • #7
    • 10th May 18, 7:37 PM
    • #7
    • 10th May 18, 7:37 PM
    That's brilliant! My head was just spinning trying to read through so much of the content on these threads. Hard to ascertain what's relevant and what's not. Thanks again for point me in the right direction!
    • v022980
    • By v022980 7th Aug 18, 3:31 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    v022980
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:31 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:31 PM
    Update:

    I have since received a bundle of evidence from SCS at my response to LBC. The evidence is referring to most of the below points. Most notably bundles of photographs.

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, can you provide photographic evidence, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1;establishing yourself as the creditor.
    8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 7th Aug 18, 3:35 PM
    • 9,346 Posts
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    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:35 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:35 PM
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B

    UKPC are BPA members not IPC ?

    The whole point of the new protocol is that you can dispute what
    they claim. You can do that within 30 days

    So, from the bundle (of dead trees) sent to you, what do
    you dispute
    Last edited by beamerguy; 07-08-2018 at 3:39 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • v022980
    • By v022980 7th Aug 18, 3:36 PM
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    v022980
    I have also received a County Court claim for the value of 930 (800+130 legal costs)

    I've acknowledged the claim online with MCOL.

    I'm drafting a defence but wondered what I should focus on?

    The lack of contract seems a natural start point, in addition to the fact that the signage is inadequate. I've followed the Jonnersh example but wondered if anybody any more recent cases I could include to support an own space/visitor permit residential case?

    Thanks guys!
    • v022980
    • By v022980 7th Aug 18, 3:37 PM
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    v022980
    They responded with this information. That must have been oversight on my part. This is all new to me
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 7th Aug 18, 3:42 PM
    • 9,346 Posts
    • 12,300 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I have also received a County Court claim for the value of 930 (800+130 legal costs)

    I've acknowledged the claim online with MCOL.

    I'm drafting a defence but wondered what I should focus on?

    The lack of contract seems a natural start point, in addition to the fact that the signage is inadequate. I've followed the Jonnersh example but wondered if anybody any more recent cases I could include to support an own space/visitor permit residential case?

    Thanks guys!
    Originally posted by v022980
    You said a couple of posts above

    I have since received a bundle of evidence from SCS

    Confused, did you not respond to that within the 30
    day period ...... they have issued a court claim ???

    As you said in your first post, it works out at 160 per ticket

    They have added debt collector fees which a court will not
    allow.

    As this is residential and as UKPC fair badly in residential
    cases, from everything you are saying, this could be a big
    whooping in court for SCS and UKPC

    UKPC lose residential case. Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/01/ukpc-lose-residential-case-charge-not.html

    UKPC lose residential case
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/03/ukpc-lose-residential-case.html

    UKPC cancel 1500 of residential charges
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/01/ukpc-cancel-1500-of-residential-charges.html

    UKPC lose residential case. Tenant can derogate parking rights to visitors.
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/07/ukpc-lose-residential-case-tenant-can.html

    UKPC lose 7 ticket residential case. Judge rules resident can park in safety
    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/12/ukpc-lose-7-ticket-residential-case.html

    One common denominator to these failed cases and this farce ....

    SCS LAW
    Last edited by beamerguy; 08-08-2018 at 9:46 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Aug 18, 6:19 PM
    • 3,977 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Given you can see the bundle and we can't, you really should know what points to focus on!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 7th Aug 18, 6:33 PM
    • 10,638 Posts
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    The Deep
    Have you seen this

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35253759

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Aug 18, 7:15 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    The lack of contract seems a natural start point, in addition to the fact that the signage is inadequate.
    Go back to them and point out that their whole case turns on the issue of whether they were in a position to offer consideration in the from of parking.

    You deny this and have put them to proof which they either do not have or are frustrating the court's overriding rule by denying you sight of it. Tell them you will be drawing the court's attention to this abuse of process.

    You are requesting a second time for an **unredacted** copy of their contract to satisfy yourself of the conflicting claims they are making.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Aug 18, 9:34 AM
    • 10,638 Posts
    • 10,480 Thanks
    The Deep
    One further point, in an "own space" case, why are people advising the OP to conceal the his identity? IMO his case carries more weight if he defends as both keeper and driver?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • v022980
    • By v022980 9th Aug 18, 11:25 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    v022980
    Having gone through the bundle of paperwork SCS have sent over to me after my response to their LBC, one thing has jumped out at me.

    They have provided some evidence of historic 1 year contracts with the landowner. But the most recent contract they have sent ended in 2016. I'm presuming this is what I should primarily build my case around? I have tried to ask the MC about this but they have refused to speak to me about it and said I need to speak to UKPC directly which I'm reluctant to do (as per advice on this forum).

    In addition to the above point, they have sent blurry and heavily pixelated photos of my car parked in the visitors parking bays, and one photo of it parked on the side of the road (outside marked bays). Some of said photos show signage in the immediate vicinity of the car will this effect my claim that that sub standard signage can't constitute the formation of a contract? T`he quality of signage is still poor with tiny illegible font.

    So I'm thinking:

    Primary Defence is lack of contract to lawfully issue tickets.

    Secondary Defence lack of appropriate signage.

    Any thoughts?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 10th Aug 18, 6:48 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    Yes have them both in. Some judge will look at the pics and throw the case out within a couple of minutes. These low quality images are often used as a pretence to get people into the court system to frighten them. You should pick up on anything the average person would consider dodgy. Challenge it all.

    Courts want certainty so as many doubts as you can find as they have to prove their case.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • v022980
    • By v022980 17th Aug 18, 10:20 AM
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    v022980
    Just had a reply to my request from SCS for an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. They haven't provided an unredacted copy, but they are adamant that their contract is binding.

    The exact wording in their most recent contract is:

    Initial Period: 11 Months from Start Date
    Start Date: 1st July 2015

    There are no references to extending beyond the initial period in the contract.

    They've explained that this was supposed to be a rolling contract after 11 months came to an end but there is no evidence of this. Am I still able to pursue this route of defence? Or do they have a valid point?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Aug 18, 10:27 AM
    • 20,270 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    Am I still able to pursue this route of defence?
    Absolutely you can, and should do.

    Or do they have a valid point?
    They'll need to persuade a Judge on that, especially as you will be arguing the opposite it in your defence.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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