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  • FIRST POST
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 9th May 18, 9:27 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 1Thanks
    sweetha
    Paypal is refusing me my refund
    • #1
    • 9th May 18, 9:27 PM
    Paypal is refusing me my refund 9th May 18 at 9:27 PM
    Hi,

    I hope I am writing in the right thread and hopefully, someone can help me with an issue I have with PayPal and wowcamera.

    In January I bought two Samsung phones (£1068) with Wowcamera (online retailer) and they were only offering the option to pay with PayPal, since I am a regular user I did not think twice and paid the whole amount using my PayPal Credit ( which has got a 4-month interest free offer). However, the problem began when the parcel did not show up, but DHL marked it as delivered with a signature and name I did not recognise. I contacted DHL immediately and they informed me that they will look into it and I also contacted the seller, with no response from both of them for days. After I pressured and annoyed them, DHL came to conclusion, that since the driver was in my area that the parcel was delivered.
    I again complaint, but this time through PayPal, to my shock they came back to me after weeks of waiting that the fake signature and name was enough proof for them and rejected to refund me. I also was in communication with the seller and they were investigating and finally decided to refund me, but PayPal closed the case and they did not see any further pressure to refund me.
    I am not sure what else to do and I would need help on what other steps I can take to get my refund?

    Thanks in advance

    sweetha
Page 1
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 9th May 18, 9:31 PM
    • 6,896 Posts
    • 15,040 Thanks
    marliepanda
    • #2
    • 9th May 18, 9:31 PM
    • #2
    • 9th May 18, 9:31 PM
    They may have some evidence that it was indeed delivered correctly. Many vans have cameras and trackers.

    It!!!8217;s also very easy for someone to sign an illegible signature.
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 9th May 18, 9:42 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sweetha
    • #3
    • 9th May 18, 9:42 PM
    • #3
    • 9th May 18, 9:42 PM
    Hi,
    I understand that they have their measurements, but they have to provide the proof to me, too. Also, I do not have any direct neighbours and I waited on that day for the parcel to arrive. No knock on the door or a phone call!
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 9th May 18, 9:51 PM
    • 13,066 Posts
    • 10,415 Thanks
    unholyangel
    • #4
    • 9th May 18, 9:51 PM
    • #4
    • 9th May 18, 9:51 PM
    I don't think any of us are familiar with either the laws of hong kong or their courts so we may not have any suggestions that would help.

    Governing law and jurisdiction

    These terms and conditions and all transactions relating to this website are governed by Hong Kong law and are subject to the non–exclusive jurisdiction of the Hong Kong courts. We do not accept amendments to these terms and conditions.

    When you paid via paypal....this was using paypal credit you said? Try a section 75 claim with paypal.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 9th May 18, 10:06 PM
    • 16,131 Posts
    • 22,198 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    • #5
    • 9th May 18, 10:06 PM
    • #5
    • 9th May 18, 10:06 PM
    Ouch.

    You cannot take DHL to court as their contract is with the seller.

    You cannot take the seller to court as you have bought from someone outside the UK.

    Unless your PayPal payment was backed by a credit card (as mentioned above) then your only other (but dishonest) option is to open a dispute for not as described and returns the <nothing> that you have received.

    Have you contacted the police and reported it stolen? If not, do this. I personally wold then tackle DHL againm state that yu have reported it as stolen by their driver, and the police will be in contact.
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 9th May 18, 11:40 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sweetha
    • #6
    • 9th May 18, 11:40 PM
    • #6
    • 9th May 18, 11:40 PM
    Thanks unholyangel and pinkshoes.

    @unholyangel: Could you please give me the website to the citation, so I can have a look.

    Also, does anyone know or have experience with applying section 75 on Paypal credit?
    I am considering on going to the police and report the item stolen! I made a complaint to the financial ombudsman as a first step, but do you feel I should go ahead and make a complaint, too?
    Last edited by sweetha; 09-05-2018 at 11:47 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th May 18, 12:21 AM
    • 11,442 Posts
    • 11,971 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 10th May 18, 12:21 AM
    • #7
    • 10th May 18, 12:21 AM
    Unholyangel's quote is from the very same website where you placed your order;


    No doubt you ticked a box saying you had read and agreed to those terms at the time that you placed your order.


    Why not read MSE's Section 75 Refunds article?
    .
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 10th May 18, 1:08 AM
    • 13,066 Posts
    • 10,415 Thanks
    unholyangel
    • #8
    • 10th May 18, 1:08 AM
    • #8
    • 10th May 18, 1:08 AM
    Thanks unholyangel and pinkshoes.

    @unholyangel: Could you please give me the website to the citation, so I can have a look.

    Also, does anyone know or have experience with applying section 75 on Paypal credit?
    I am considering on going to the police and report the item stolen! I made a complaint to the financial ombudsman as a first step, but do you feel I should go ahead and make a complaint, too?
    Originally posted by sweetha
    A section 75 claim you would make against the creditor (in this case, paypal - or paypal credit if its a different company). Im not entirely sure if it will be successful for a few reasons. Namely that:

    1) It requires a debtor > creditor > supplier link and sometimes third parties like paypal can break this chain when paying by card if you pay via your paypal account as the chain becomes debtor > creditor > paypal > supplier. Im not sure what the chain is when paypal credit is involved.
    2) Section 75 basically only gives you a claim against the creditor if you have a claim against the retailer. Under UK law theres no doubt you would have a claim for non-delivery under the consumer rights act (and potentially the consumer contract regulations also). But given its hong kong law that applies and I'm not familiar with their laws, I couldn't say for definite.

    Once paypal have issued their final response (or if 8 weeks pass without them giving you one) you can then complain to the financial ombudsman.

    As a last resort, you should also be able to file against them in the english courts (assuming youre in england) given their terms say non-exclusive jurisdiction of the hong kong courts. You wont be able to use MCOL online though unless the company have a address in england or wales that they accept service to.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 10th May 18, 3:02 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sweetha
    • #9
    • 10th May 18, 3:02 PM
    • #9
    • 10th May 18, 3:02 PM
    @KeithP the website was updated, they are not the same T&C's, as when I bought the items and my section 75 question was in regards to experience with Paypal Credit.

    I once again got in touch with the seller and also with the financial ombudsman against Paypal.

    @unholyangel I feel Paypal as the credit provider needs to accept my section 75 claim, as I did not use them as a third party, but as a financier.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th May 18, 5:19 PM
    • 11,442 Posts
    • 11,971 Thanks
    KeithP
    @KeithP the website was updated, they are not the same T&C's, as when I bought the items...
    Originally posted by sweetha
    Then please show us the T&Cs you agreed to, or at least what that term said at the time of purchase.

    Did they perhaps send you an email with their T&Cs on it?
    .
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 15th May 18, 1:07 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sweetha
    PayPal is the culprit here, as they are accepting a fake signature ( I know these machines are small and that DHL or other service tend not to take a name), but they need to use common sense as DHL did not provide any other details, apart from it was a man, who accepted the delivery. Apart from T&C, it is under consumer law that they need to refund me if something is off and they need to dispute it with DHL.
    I also finally have got a European address, I can file a complaint with and I also reported the case to the police.
    Last edited by sweetha; 15-05-2018 at 1:10 PM.
    • mattyprice4004
    • By mattyprice4004 15th May 18, 5:14 PM
    • 3,779 Posts
    • 3,307 Thanks
    mattyprice4004
    Did you take out finance with PayPal, or simply pay with a card linked to your PayPal account?

    Your consumer rights are against the seller, not PayPal. PayPal didn't sell you anything.
    Unfortunately this is one of the risks of buying abroad - you took a chance to get the goods cheaper, but you don't have the same level of protection for purchases.
    • bris
    • By bris 15th May 18, 5:24 PM
    • 8,213 Posts
    • 7,157 Thanks
    bris
    Any claim you make whether it be through Paypay or S75 is going to fail simply because they have proof of delivery.


    As for the fake signature, have you ever tried to sign one of those electronic pads with your finger? You know it's just a squiggle so the fact it's been signed at all is enough for them.


    You would struggle with this even if it was al UK based, but throw in the fact it's Chinese and you really are in trouble with this one.
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 15th May 18, 7:38 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sweetha
    I agree, that they have proof of delivery in terms of signature, but the thing is they did not take a name down with the delivery, so I can contact the neighbour in question. Also, I was not left with a note that it was left with a neighbour. I am able to prove that I was not in at the time of delivery and due to the area I live the next neighbour would be around 200 meter away, I assume they did not leave it there.
    @mattyprice4004: I took out a credit with PayPal, which is protected by s75 under my contract with them.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th May 18, 7:59 PM
    • 11,442 Posts
    • 11,971 Thanks
    KeithP
    ...due to the area I live the next neighbour would be around 200 meter away, I assume they did not leave it there.
    Originally posted by sweetha
    Rather than assuming, could you not ask that neighbour?

    Just an idea.
    .
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 15th May 18, 8:15 PM
    • 5,600 Posts
    • 4,249 Thanks
    sheramber
    I agree, that they have proof of delivery in terms of signature, but the thing is they did not take a name down with the delivery, so I can contact the neighbour in question. Also, I was not left with a note that it was left with a neighbour. I am able to prove that I was not in at the time of delivery and due to the area I live the next neighbour would be around 200 meter away, I assume they did not leave it there.
    @mattyprice4004: I took out a credit with PayPal, which is protected by s75 under my contract with them.
    Originally posted by sweetha
    I am able to prove that I was not in at the time of delivery and due to the area

    But in post no 3 you say
    I waited on that day for the parcel to arrive. No knock on the door or a phone call!
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 16th May 18, 3:52 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sweetha
    @sheramber: True I waited for that day, however, I asked for the delivery proof and the timing stated I was away due to a personal matter for 1 1/2 hour. I live in a very rural area, with only two neighbours who are within reach, but one was not in the country and the other person was at the same place as me.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 16th May 18, 5:01 AM
    • 28,229 Posts
    • 11,484 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    You waited in all day yet managed to pop out for 90 minutes. So you didnt wait in all day?

    Citation? What country/state are you in?

    Paypal are accepting a fake signature? How do they know its fake?

    Nobody needs to refund you if they have proof the items were delivered.

    And if you change your story when you speak to them, its not a shock they dont take it as 100% true.
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 16th May 18, 8:17 AM
    • 2,574 Posts
    • 1,587 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Ouch.

    You cannot take DHL to court as their contract is with the seller.

    You cannot take the seller to court as you have bought from someone outside the UK.

    Unless your PayPal payment was backed by a credit card (as mentioned above) then your only other (but dishonest) option is to open a dispute for not as described and returns the <nothing> that you have received.

    Have you contacted the police and reported it stolen? If not, do this. I personally wold then tackle DHL againm state that yu have reported it as stolen by their driver, and the police will be in contact.
    Originally posted by pinkshoes
    It’s a bit strong accusing the driver of theft.
    • sweetha
    • By sweetha 16th May 18, 3:05 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sweetha
    I did not change my story with them as they gave me a time frame from 8-12 am, as they tried to deliver the item the previous day and left a card.
    The accusation that the driver might have stolen the item is not harsh, simply because I asked DHL the previous day through the online option to keep the item at the depot, but they decided to deliver the item on their own will.

    I also do not see the connection with me leaving for 90 minutes and DHL being irresponsible.
    I am based in England and two circles are not a signature and as far as I concerned not a proof, so I upkeep my view that the driver stole the item and it is up to him to prove he did not.
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