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  • FIRST POST
    • Pring
    • By Pring 9th May 18, 5:47 PM
    • 40Posts
    • 13Thanks
    Pring
    Incorrect Items in EICR
    • #1
    • 9th May 18, 5:47 PM
    Incorrect Items in EICR 9th May 18 at 5:47 PM
    I asked a company recently to perform an Electrical Inspection Condition Report for me, as I have some building work upcoming and I wanted to know the state of my electrics so I could rewire at the same time if needed. I'm in Scotland, in case that's relevant.

    They found a few issues, as I expected, but also flagged a few that I don't think are valid and it's making me question the validity of the rest of the report.

    (As an aside, I also found out that the company I thought I was hiring was liquidated a couple of years ago and restarted with a similar name, X Solutions vs X Services, but by someone else, possibly ex-employees. That coupled with the fact that at least one of their Trusted Trader reviews is from a family member has set off alarm bells).

    Amongst the issues they've specified is that the light fitting and fan in the bathroom aren't IP rated and that the fan isolator should be lockable. The bathroom was installed less than two years ago and the NICEIC electricians at the time told me it was all correct. Upon checking the manual for the light and the fan it seems that both are correctly IP rated for the zone. The isolator switch for the shower is just outside the bathroom but in full view of the shower and again the installer told me it was fine.





    They've also flagged other issues in recent-ish work. For example an undersized cable for the cooker (installed on a new circuit in 2010), no earth on the lighting circuit or mains bonding. Again I had a new consumer unit fitted in 2014 and would have expected those to be flagged by the NICEIC installer at the time.

    I've asked them to confirm that they are definitely issues and not mistakes but haven't yet received a response.

    There are two scenarios I can see now.

    1) They admit that it's a mistake. If so, is it fair for me to request reduced payment as I'm not convinced that they won't have made other mistakes and would want another firm to do an EICR to confirm.

    2) They stand by their assessment. I'll have to get the bathroom installers back again to check again and would question the consumer unit installer too as to why he didn't warn me about those issues. I had asked him explicitly about them and he indicated they were fine. If they insist they are fine, then I'm not sure where I stand. I'd have to get another EICR from a 3rd firm to confirm the findings.


    So my questions are:
    1) Does anyone know if that fan isolator setup above is OK or does it need to be lockable if sited there?
    2) If mistakes are admitted, does asking for reduced payment seem reasonable so that I can get another report?
    3) If no mistakes are admitted, how do I go about approaching the previous electricians to check their work again? Or do I just let it go?
Page 1
    • Risteard
    • By Risteard 9th May 18, 7:54 PM
    • 781 Posts
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    Risteard
    • #2
    • 9th May 18, 7:54 PM
    • #2
    • 9th May 18, 7:54 PM
    Forget asking for your money back or a price reduction - an inspection report is, at the end of the day, the opinion of the inspector.

    What you might do is ask them to confirm that these are indeed non-compliances with BS7671:2008 (2015). If they are not then they cannot be included in the Electrical Installation Condition Report as this report is carried out against the Requirements of the current iteration of BS7671 (IET/IEE Wiring Regulations).

    Dare I ask whether the contractor was chosen solely on price? Competent contractors are not going to be the cheapest and are not going to be available at a day's notice. I suspect you have brought this on yourself.

    As to whether lighting circuits etc. are earthed, obviously I have no idea sitting in Derry whether an installation in Scotland that I have not seen has or not.
    • Pring
    • By Pring 9th May 18, 8:06 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pring
    • #3
    • 9th May 18, 8:06 PM
    • #3
    • 9th May 18, 8:06 PM
    Thanks Risteard and good point about it being an opinion. I'll settle up with them and move on.

    The company was chosen due to good reviews from neighbours, Trusted Trader website and having a physical location nearby. Unfortunately those reviews seem to be for the previous entity rather than the new company post-liquidation. The lesson I've learned is to check Companies House data before hiring anyone as I'd have spotted the liquidation and reformation and realised the reviews may have been for the older company.
    • Ruski
    • By Ruski 9th May 18, 9:12 PM
    • 1,515 Posts
    • 891 Thanks
    Ruski
    • #4
    • 9th May 18, 9:12 PM
    • #4
    • 9th May 18, 9:12 PM
    @Risteard - Lockable isolator? I can understand lockouts on an industrial 3 phase board - but if we're locking isolators in a domestic environment surely that would mean lockouts on all consumer units MCb's, RCD's - anything that can isolate fixed wiring?!?!? Really?
    Never ever ever ever seen any of my Sparks refuse an installation based on non-locking isolators

    Russ
    Perfection takes time: don't expect miracles in a day
    • Risteard
    • By Risteard 10th May 18, 12:30 AM
    • 781 Posts
    • 273 Thanks
    Risteard
    • #5
    • 10th May 18, 12:30 AM
    • #5
    • 10th May 18, 12:30 AM
    @Risteard - Lockable isolator? I can understand lockouts on an industrial 3 phase board - but if we're locking isolators in a domestic environment surely that would mean lockouts on all consumer units MCb's, RCD's - anything that can isolate fixed wiring?!?!? Really?
    Never ever ever ever seen any of my Sparks refuse an installation based on non-locking isolators

    Russ
    Originally posted by Ruski
    I wasn't actually expressing an opinion on the observations - just making a general point.

    That said if an isolator is remote from what it is isolating then, if it is being used for mechanical maintenance etc. then it should be possible to secure it in the open (off) position.
    • Ruski
    • By Ruski 10th May 18, 7:15 AM
    • 1,515 Posts
    • 891 Thanks
    Ruski
    • #6
    • 10th May 18, 7:15 AM
    • #6
    • 10th May 18, 7:15 AM
    That said if an isolator is remote from what it is isolating then, if it is being used for mechanical maintenance etc. then it should be possible to secure it in the open (off) position.
    Originally posted by Risteard
    Understandable

    In your opinion, is the OP's isolator (just outside the bathroom door) 'remote' enough to need a lockable iso?

    Russ
    Perfection takes time: don't expect miracles in a day
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 10th May 18, 8:17 AM
    • 902 Posts
    • 771 Thanks
    tacpot12
    • #7
    • 10th May 18, 8:17 AM
    • #7
    • 10th May 18, 8:17 AM
    Observations like the "Isolator should be lockable" are correct. The isolator should ideally be lockable, but it is not a requirement that it is lockable. Just like it is desirable that an installation should have an RCD, but it is not requirement that is has an RCD IF the installation was performed when RCDs were not required.

    The Light and Fan in the bathroom may not have a visible IP ratings, but if the manual confirms the manufacturer's IP rating, then there is no problem. (Keep the manuals with your EICR). Did you provide the manuals to the company doing the inspection?

    @Risteard - Lockable isolator? I can understand lockouts on an industrial 3 phase board - but if we're locking isolators in a domestic environment surely that would mean lockouts on all consumer units MCb's, RCD's - anything that can isolate fixed wiring?!?!? Really?
    Pretty much all MCB, RCDs and main switches on consumer units can have lockouts fitted. Some have a specific provision for this - holes in the sides of the device that the lockouts pins fit into. In other cases the lockout clamps to the operating lever. Most electricians will lockout the circuits they are working on if they are able to, but if they can't, they will do a risk assessment (usually in their heads - not on paper!), to decide how they can safely work on the circuit.

    The the OP's other points:
    For example an undersized cable for the cooker (installed on a new circuit in 2010), no earth on the lighting circuit or mains bonding. Again I had a new consumer unit fitted in 2014 and would have expected those to be flagged by the NICEIC installer at the time.
    No earth on the lighting circuit is common. Ideally, your consumer unit will have a sticker on it confirming the circuits affected.

    The undersized cooker cable should not have been installed undersized, but if it is undersized, it could be a problem. You really need to see the cable sizing calculations done by the EICR company to check whether any of their input data (like the lenght of the cable) is wrong. Rather than check this yourself - which I appreciate is difficult for a non-electrician - can you get the original installer to review the EICR company's calculation and get an explanation from them as to whether he or they are correct?

    The lack of bonding to water and gas mains shiould have been picked up by the NICEIC installer that did the consumer unit upgrade. Have you checked whether the bonding is present? If it is missing, your really need to report the installer to NICEIC as this is very basic failing.
    Last edited by tacpot12; 10-05-2018 at 8:24 AM.
    • Risteard
    • By Risteard 10th May 18, 8:34 AM
    • 781 Posts
    • 273 Thanks
    Risteard
    • #8
    • 10th May 18, 8:34 AM
    • #8
    • 10th May 18, 8:34 AM
    it is not requirement that is has an RCD IF the installation was performed when RCDs were not required.
    Originally posted by tacpot12
    I'm going to have to disagree with you here. An installation is always inspected to the current iteration of BS7671. Currently that is BS7671:2008 (2015).

    You are assessing the safety of the installation against these requirements.

    Whilst an installation to an earlier Edition etc. of BS7671 may not necessarily be unsafe that does not state that it is automatically safe. When something was installed has absolutely no bearing on the severity of the issue now. We don't say an installation is fine "because it was installed to the 1st Edition in 1882". That would clearly be a nonsense.

    Fused neutrals were permitted at one time - however they are clearly dangerous in spite of this fact.

    I can see instances where no additional protection by an RCD would just be an advisory "improvement recommended" but I can also see instances where it would lead to an Unsatisfactory assessment of the electrical installation.

    As for a sticker stating which lighting circuits are not earthed, such a sticker was invented by the Electrical Safety Council. BS7671 offers no such get-out clause for unearthed lighting circuits and certainly in most circumstances it would lead to an Unsatisfactory assessment from me. Bear in mind if the fixing screws are not nylon then they are likely to be an exposed conductive part.
    Last edited by Risteard; 10-05-2018 at 8:37 AM.
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