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  • FIRST POST
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 8th May 18, 12:32 PM
    • 38Posts
    • 13Thanks
    blackjew
    Apr issued ticket that i ignored that has gone to claim stage from northampton county court business
    • #1
    • 8th May 18, 12:32 PM
    Apr issued ticket that i ignored that has gone to claim stage from northampton county court business 8th May 18 at 12:32 PM
    Hi all ,
    first thing i would like to thank this website and all the contributors for all the work that has been put into this forum, this site has been a goldmine for myself in the past dealing with these parking tickets. but i've hit a stumbling block at present let me explain...

    in July of 2017 i entered a privately owned car park at a retail park in a area of the midlands. To be honest the only reason the driver did was because we was lost and needed to pull off a heavily congested ring road to make a call to clarify the directions and set my satnav. at no time did we leave the car and to be honest on a normal day that process would have taken us 5 minutes max . but because of the heavy traffic and roadworks that obstructed exiting in a fluid manner it has stated that my actual time was 14 minutes. now i was always in the pretence that a 10 minute grace was to be given and in previous times this has happened while yes they have contacted us eventually they have gone away. But this one has become a cancer to the point they have taken it to small claims. No doubt many of you guys will say if you read the forum the answers are there but i'm going to admit the stress and dyslexia is getting the better of me. i've read numerous posts and recommendations regarding this type of ticket and still cant find the right solution and method to attack this .
    so far i'm up to the stage of acknowledgement on the money claim website , ive requested the 28 days to put together my case . but i'm stuck. Can somebody help me at this stage or have we messed up our chances? please help.....
    Last edited by blackjew; 10-05-2018 at 1:18 AM. Reason: the watchers
Page 2
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 15th May 18, 2:43 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    d. It has been identified that the claimant has improved signs since the material date, this suggesting that previous signs were deficient and did not comply with the Claimants Code of Practice

    1. The defendant denies that the vehicle was ever at the car park claimed in the Particulars of!Claim, because no such car park poo poo can be found within England and Wales. No charge can therefore be payable by anyone. The claimant is put to strict proof that the Defendants vehicle was ever at the location specified in the particulars.!



    does this sound better ? or does it still need tidying
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 15th May 18, 12:22 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    thank you guys i appreciate your help, so could i have some feedback please , i've amended the wording , thank you couponmad for pointing out that it's all the late nights. do you guys think it needs anything else i think i have 5 days left to submit and i'm pulling out what hair i have left


    In the County Court Business Centre
    Between:
    Civil Enforcement Limited
    V
    xxxxxxxxxxx


    Claim Number: xxxxxxx


    I, xxxxxxxx, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the claim for each of the following reasons:



    1. The Claim Form issued on **/**/2018 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by !!!8220;Civil Enforcement Limited!!!8221;. The claim does not have a valid signature and is not a statement of truth. It states that it has been issued by Civil Enforcement Limited, as the Claimants Legal Representative. Practice Direct 22 requires that a statement of case on behalf of a company must be signed by a person holding a senior position and state the position. If the party is legally represented, the legal representative may sign the statement of truth but in his own name and not that of his firm or employer.

    a. The defendant denies that the vehicle was ever at the car park claimed in the Particulars of!Claim, because no such car park poo poo can be found within England and Wales. No charge can therefore be payable by anyone. The claimant is put to strict proof that the Defendants vehicle was ever at the location specified in the particulars.!




    2. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold the Defendant liable under the strict !!!8216;keeper liability!!!8217; provisions. Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert, stated that !!!8220;However keeper information is obtained, there is no reasonable presumption in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.!!!8221; Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when it is believed that neither the signs, nor any NTK mentioned a possible additional 249.66 for outstanding debt and damages.

    3. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that 50 'legal representative!!!8217;s (or even admin) costs!!!8217; were incurred. The Defendant believes that!Civil Enforcement Ltd has artificially inflated this claim. They are claiming legal costs when not only is this not permitted (CPR 27.14) but the Defendant believes that they have not incurred legal costs. According to Ladak v DRC Locums UKEAT/0488/13/LA the claimant can only recover the direct and provable costs of the time spent on preparing the claim in a legal capacity, not any administration cost. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to any interest whatsoever. The Claimant has not explained how the claim has increased from the original parking notice to 250.**. If the Claimant alleges that they claim the cost of its in-house administration, these cannot be recovered - they are staff performing the task that they have been employed for and essential to the Claimant's business plan.

    4. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an un-denied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay 85 after exceeding a licence to park free. As far as I can ascertain, based upon the very vague particulars of claim and complete lack of evidence and photographs, and without having been furnished with the alleged signage 'contract', none of this applies in this material case.

    5. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.
    a. The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.
    b. In the absence of strict proof, I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.!
    c. Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    d. It has been identified that the claimant has improved signs since the material date, this suggesting that previous signs were deficient and did not comply with the Claimants Code of Practice



    i) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    ii) It is believed the signage terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorized party using the premises as intended.
    iii) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
    iv) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.

    d. BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    i) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
    ii) the sum pursued exceeds 100.
    iii) there is / was no compliant landowner contract.


    6. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    7. Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the day in question. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car over 10 months later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.

    8. This Claimant uses ANPR camera systems to process data but fails to comply with the Information Commissioner's 'Data Protection Code of Practice for Surveillance Cameras and Personal Information'. This Code confirms that it applies to ANPR systems, and that the private sector is required to follow this code to meet its legal obligations as a data processor. Members of the British Parking Association AOS are required to comply fully with the DPA, as a pre-requisite of being able to use the DVLA KADOE system and in order to enforce parking charges on private land. The Claimant's failures to comply include, but are not limited to:

    i) Lack of an initial privacy impact assessment, and

    ii) Lack of an evaluation of proportionality and necessity, considering concepts that would impact upon fairness under the first data protection principle, and

    iii) Failure to regularly evaluate whether it was necessary and proportionate to continue using ANPR at all times/days across the site, as opposed to a less privacy-intrusive method of parking enforcement (such as 'light touch' enforcement only at busy times, or manning the car park with a warden in order to consider the needs of genuine shoppers and taking into account the prevailing conditions at the site on any given day), and

    iv) Failure to prominently inform a driver in large lettering on clear signage, of the purpose of the ANPR system and how the data would be used, and

    v) Lack of the 'Privacy Notice' required to deliver mandatory information about an individual's right of subject access, under the Data Protection Act (DPA). At no point has the Defendant been advised how to apply for a Subject Access Request, what that is, nor informed of the legal right to obtain all relevant data held, and

    8.1. This Claimant has therefore failed to meet its legal obligations under the DPA.!!

    8.2. In a similar instance of DPA failure when using ANPR cameras without full DPA compliance - confirmed on this Claimant's Trade Body website in a 2013 article urging its members to comply - Hertfordshire Constabulary was issued with an enforcement notice. The force was ordered to stop processing people's information via ANPR until they could comply. The Information Commissioner ruled that the collection of the information was unlawful; breaching principle one of the DPA.!

    9. The Court's attention will be drawn to the case of! Andre Agassi v S Robinson!(HM Inspector of Taxes). Whilst not wholly aligned to the issues in this case, it is on all fours with the above point, because of the principle it extols that no one should profit from their unlawful conduct. Paragraph 20 of the Transcript of that case states: ''It is common ground that, whatever costs may be recoverable by a litigant in respect of professional services such as those provided by Tenon to the appellant, they cannot include the cost of any activities which are unlawful''. Paragraph 28 continues - ''...cannot on any view recover the cost of activities performed by Tenon which it was not lawful for them to perform.''!!

    9.1. Further, in!RTA (Business Consultants) Limited v Bracewell![2015] EWHC 630 (QB) (12 March 2015), at paragraph 34 the Judge discusses the relevance of the public law principle going back well over 200 years, that no man should profit from his crime; it is submitted that this is particularly relevant in this action. The Judge cited Lord Mansfield CJ to explain that:!''The principle of public policy is this;!ex dolo malo non oritur actio.! No Court will lend its aid to a man who founds his cause of action upon an immoral or an illegal act. If [...] the cause of action appears to arise!ex turpi causa, or the transgression of a positive law of this country, there the Court says he has no right to be assisted. It is upon that ground the Court goes; not for the sake of the defendant, but because they will not lend their aid to such a plaintiff.''

    9.2. Even if there was a purported contract between the unidentified driver and the Claimant, it was illegal at its formation because it was incapable of being created without an illegal act (the failure to comply with points!#8 i - v!above, as part of the legal obligations that must be communicated up front and/or undertaken by a consumer-facing service provider, some of which were required even before commencing any use of ANPR at all).

    9.3. Where a contract is illegal when formed, neither party will acquire rights under that contract, regardless of whether or not there was an intention to break the law; the contract will be void and treated as if it had never been entered into. As such, the asserted contract cannot be enforced.

    9.4. In this case it was not lawful for the Claimant to process any data using ANPR camera systems upon which it relied for the entire ticketing regime, due to its failure to meet its specific legal obligations as a data processor of ANPR information. The collection of the information was unlawful; breaching principle one of the DPA.!

    9.5. To add weight, the Defendant also cites from! Parking Eye Ltd v Somerfield Stores Ltd![2012] EWCA Civ 1338, which concerns an alleged illegal contract involving a similar BPA member parking firm. Whilst the facts of that case are not relevant, the Judge's comments at paragraph 29 of the Transcript of the!Somerfield!case are of importance: ''At common law, historically, a distinction has been drawn between cases where the guilty party intended from the time of entering the contract unlawfully and cases where the intention to perform unlawfully was only made subsequently''. As has already been stated, in this case the problem arose at (and before) the formation of the alleged contract and was not in relation to any subsequent act. Laws LJ, in Somerfield, concluded that ParkingEye did not have an intention, when creating that contract, to deliberately break the law so the contract was upheld. Differently in this case, it is asserted that the Claimant did deliberately or negligently break the DPA and as it was a BPA member with access to a wealth of DPA compliance information, articles and legal advice, and being a signatory to the KADOE contract with the DVLA, the Claimant cannot be excused from, nor justify, their conduct in failing to meet their legal obligations.

    9.6. At paragraphs 65-74 of the Somerfield transcript, Laws LJ set out three factors which need to be considered in a defence of illegality. The Defendant submits that the key issues in this action are that:

    i) the commission of an illegal wrong being present at the time of entering the contract means that the Claimant will not be able to enforce the contract.!

    ii) the illegality is central to the contract and is not merely a minor aspect, thus it should not be held to be too remote so as to render the contract enforceable.

    iii) the nature of the illegality: in this case it was a breach of legal obligations regarding data, and not merely a civil tort as in!Somerfield.!The gravity of the illegality is therefore far greater.

    9.7. It should be noted that the issue of breach of the DPA also transgresses the tests of fairness and transparency of consumer contracts, as set out in the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which was enacted after the final hearing in! Beavis. This charge and use of ANPR by this claimant is both unfair and not transparent and can be fully distinguished from!Beavis, where none of the issues in the Defendant's points 8 and 9 above were argued.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) Failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on ** ****** 2018.

    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    STATEMENT OF TRUTH

    I confirm that the contents of this Defence are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    Signed
    Dated
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th May 18, 1:41 PM
    • 3,977 Posts
    • 4,784 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    car park poo poo?

    I have no idea what you mean by "company name"
    Type out exactly what address / reference to car park they give inthe POC. Save us guessing.
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 15th May 18, 2:26 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    i added that because i thought i had to limit anything that could link this thread to me

    ok so in the poc it states deancroft , but the actual car park is northwood.

    a company use to operate on the same street many years back with this name
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th May 18, 2:31 PM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,686 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    because no such car park poo poo can be found within England and Wales.
    Haha, love the way you redacted the name for this forum!

    I think you should submit your defence (signed & dated then scanned & saved as a signed PDF document) and submit it by email now, there is a new CCBCAQ email addy on various threads this week.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 15th May 18, 2:39 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    thank you coupon-mad/nosferatu1001 hopefully these critters will get off my back . i will keep you guys posted on progress.

    plus i was just wondering if i was to post the actual address of one of these parking firms not the trading address that they hide behind would i get into trouble?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th May 18, 2:41 PM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,686 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Depends if the address is already in the public domain.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 15th May 18, 2:51 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    it is but not as a pcc, they have a different trading address. the real address they hide behind another company
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 16th May 18, 11:23 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    hi guys , so my defence has been processed and i will keep you updated on progress, thanks again
    • Panda75
    • By Panda75 16th May 18, 11:38 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Panda75
    Parking Appeal Rejected
    Hi All,
    Please feel free to direct me to the relevant thread if this is not relevant here. First time on MSE threads and this was about the most relevant thread I could find. I received a Penalty Charge Notice at a local sports centre back in March, where the ticket that I purchased had slipped down the dashboard to a slightly more obscure angle to view than it had been. I didnt overstay, was not parked across lines or in another bay. I received the notice and appealed through the formal appeal procedure, and each time that appeal was rejected. Photos were used in 'evidence' against me that were not taken from appropriate angles, documents uploaded and used in 'evidence' were completely irrelevant and of different floors to the one I was parked on, and I feel strongly that the parking attendant deliberately used the position of my ticket to angle his camera shots to make it look as if I didnt have a ticket on display. The fact that it states on signage not located in my line of sight (already made this case on signage through the appeal process) that a ticket should be clearly displayed, which in itself is open to interpretation, has been used inappropriately just to try and win a penalty charge. At each stage of the appeals process, the fact that the ticket slipped down the dash, from right above the steering wheel, to an angled part of the dash, but was still visible if the attendant had looked for it, has been rejected. I am in mind to fight through to the courts on this one, but want to find out if anyone has any experience of doing so on similar ground to mine.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th May 18, 11:59 AM
    • 20,271 Posts
    • 32,008 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    1. Please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 to understand the game you are now involved in.

    2. If after reading the above you need further help, please start a new thread of your own, hijacking another poster's thread is strictly against forum rules.

    3. In your new thread, please tell us the name of the PPC (common acronyms can be found in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #5).

    4. In any further posts, please use some paragraphing to break up walls of text which are so difficult to read. Some regulars skip such text blocks, which might mean you won't get the fullest attention to your issue.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 2nd Jun 18, 11:44 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    hey guys, progress so far
    so cel have filed a defence and looks like im going small claims.
    i'm just filling in the questionnaire i will keep you guys posted.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 2nd Jun 18, 1:13 PM
    • 2,025 Posts
    • 2,729 Thanks
    Castle
    hey guys, progress so far
    so cel have filed a defence and looks like im going small claims.
    i'm just filling in the questionnaire i will keep you guys posted.
    Originally posted by blackjew
    I doubt it...unless you've made a counterclaim.
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 4th Jun 18, 12:00 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    no counterclaim just sent my defence as advised, is this a uncommon practice for cel
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Jun 18, 12:04 AM
    • 10,728 Posts
    • 11,152 Thanks
    KeithP
    No, it's common practice for CEL.

    Have a look at some of the many other CEL court claims threads being processed here right now.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jun 18, 1:33 AM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,686 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    no counterclaim just sent my defence as advised, is this a uncommon practice for cel
    Originally posted by blackjew
    CEL have not filed a defence.

    You only need to read other CEL threads (there are hundreds) slightly ahead of you in the game, to know that yes they reply and yes they push it a little, then they fold. Please read some!

    You will know from the NEWBIES thread what to expect, and how to complete your DQ form.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 4th Jun 18, 9:58 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    thank you , i've followed the advice given in the newbie guide , and completed the dq .so let's wait and see
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Jun 18, 12:52 PM
    • 10,728 Posts
    • 11,152 Thanks
    KeithP
    ...so let's wait and see
    Originally posted by blackjew
    Yes you could do that, or, as has already been suggested, you could look at some of the other CEL threads to at least help you anticipate the next hurdle.
    .
    • blackjew
    • By blackjew 7th Aug 18, 3:12 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    blackjew
    Hi all so i've reached the next stage and my notice of allocation has arrived last week, so im on my next hurdle of putting together a clean witness statement/particulars for this case to be heard. I would like to ask though is there any advice that you experienced forum users can give me before i start please or will the newbie section be enough?
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 7th Aug 18, 7:10 AM
    • 3,363 Posts
    • 2,319 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    ............. as has already been suggested, you could look at some of the other CEL threads to at least help you anticipate the next hurdle.
    This is the best way to prepare yourself as was suggested by KeithP in post # 38, as well as reading other witness statements, which you will find from the Newbie stickies.
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