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  • FIRST POST
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 8th May 18, 11:03 AM
    • 16Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Matt19849
    Advice on new patio
    • #1
    • 8th May 18, 11:03 AM
    Advice on new patio 8th May 18 at 11:03 AM
    Hi,

    I am currently digging out 46m2 for our new patio and have a couple of questions I was hoping to find answers to
    • I was looking at a 50mm sub base of Type 1, is there a difference between Type 1 Limestone or Type 1 concrete or should I be looking at something else?
    • Because this patio is up against our house I'm very reluctant to use a vibrating wacker plate because we have a 650 litre aquarium against the wall and can't risk that cracking from the vibrations. Would a manual type wacker plate or roller (the ones you put water in) work just as well?
    • We are going with 20mm thick porcelain slabs, has anyone had any experience with Eterno Ivica Star.T Thin Pedestal Paving Support Pad or anything similar?
      (I would post a link but i'm a new user and not allowed sorry!

    Cheers
    Last edited by Matt19849; 08-05-2018 at 12:11 PM.
Page 1
    • Furts
    • By Furts 8th May 18, 4:43 PM
    • 4,450 Posts
    • 2,884 Thanks
    Furts
    • #2
    • 8th May 18, 4:43 PM
    • #2
    • 8th May 18, 4:43 PM
    Type 1 limestone or recycled/crushed concerete will be fine. Then use a hand tamp along the edge by the house. I would not be bothering with a roller. As for your choice of slabs ... 20mm thick porclalin for use outside sounds crazy to me. But if you have manufacturer approval and laying instructions, and prepared for the pitfalls of porcelain, then so be it.
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 8th May 18, 4:50 PM
    • 3,466 Posts
    • 9,025 Thanks
    Head The Ball
    • #3
    • 8th May 18, 4:50 PM
    • #3
    • 8th May 18, 4:50 PM
    ...(I would post a link but i'm a new user and not allowed sorry!

    Cheers
    Originally posted by Matt19849
    If you upload pictures to a hosting site and then post the links but break them somewhere (split them into two halves), I or someone else will fix the links and post the images for you.

    I use Postimage but there are plenty of other free hosting sites.
    Every Village has its Idiot.

    If you don't know who your Village Idiot is

    it is probably you.
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 8th May 18, 5:11 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    • #4
    • 8th May 18, 5:11 PM
    • #4
    • 8th May 18, 5:11 PM
    These are the items we were looking at:
    https://
    www.
    tilefixdirect.
    com/product/VVZ-START

    Regards the downsides to Porcelain - what are they? We've read downsides to sandstone and limestone slabs so reverted to these being less maintenance....

    These were the slabs we were considering:

    https://
    www.
    tiles-direct.
    com/xl-format-tiles-c1554/rak-lounge-dark-grey-59cm-x-90cm-x-2cm-outdoor-floor-tile-p3236/s3231?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=ra k-lounge-dark-grey-59cm-x-90cm-x-2cm-outdoor-floor-tile&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=Cj wKCAjwlcXXBRBhEiwApfHGTWKD1AKxBhFYrLvFmcG2Pdp34L94 vDg3WxozPunSCuMRem2rLT-foBoCa98QAvD_BwE
    • EssexExile
    • By EssexExile 8th May 18, 6:34 PM
    • 3,101 Posts
    • 2,176 Thanks
    EssexExile
    • #5
    • 8th May 18, 6:34 PM
    • #5
    • 8th May 18, 6:34 PM
    https://www.tilefixdirect.com/product/VVZ-START

    https://www.tiles-direct.com/xl-format-tiles-c1554/rak-lounge-dark-grey-59cm-x-90cm-x-2cm-outdoor-floor-tile-p3236/s3231?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=ra %20k-lounge-dark-grey-59cm-x-90cm-x-2cm-outdoor-floor-tile&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=Cj %20wKCAjwlcXXBRBhEiwApfHGTWKD1AKxBhFYrLvFmcG2Pdp34 L94%20vDg3WxozPunSCuMRem2rLT-foBoCa98QAvD_BwE
    Tall, dark & handsome. Well two out of three ain't bad.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 9th May 18, 6:53 AM
    • 4,450 Posts
    • 2,884 Thanks
    Furts
    • #6
    • 9th May 18, 6:53 AM
    • #6
    • 9th May 18, 6:53 AM
    I have ceramic tiles in my kitchen. They chip, they crack, they are deadly when wet - the thought of using them outside on your supports horrifies me. Add this to the concept of the supports and the 20mm thickness and there is no way I would be specifying, or doing, what you are proposing.

    With care, endless patience, and so on it may turn out fine so best of luck.
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 9th May 18, 8:52 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    • #7
    • 9th May 18, 8:52 AM
    • #7
    • 9th May 18, 8:52 AM
    I have ceramic tiles in my kitchen. They chip, they crack, they are deadly when wet - the thought of using them outside on your supports horrifies me. Add this to the concept of the supports and the 20mm thickness and there is no way I would be specifying, or doing, what you are proposing.

    With care, endless patience, and so on it may turn out fine so best of luck.
    Originally posted by Furts
    These aren't ceramic tiles/slabs, they are porcelain. There is a good article here on the difference:

    https://
    tiledevil
    .co.uk/blogs/style/choosing-porcelain-or-ceramic-tiles

    Nothing has been bought yet, that was why I posted the questions asking of advice or alternatives
    • Furts
    • By Furts 9th May 18, 9:27 AM
    • 4,450 Posts
    • 2,884 Thanks
    Furts
    • #8
    • 9th May 18, 9:27 AM
    • #8
    • 9th May 18, 9:27 AM
    These aren't ceramic tiles/slabs, they are porcelain. There is a good article here on the difference:

    https://
    tiledevil
    .co.uk/blogs/style/choosing-porcelain-or-ceramic-tiles

    Nothing has been bought yet, that was why I posted the questions asking of advice or alternatives
    Originally posted by Matt19849
    Porcelain tea services are white ceramic, my floor tiles are white ceramic, they are intended for showers and such like and it is almost certain they are porcelain. I use the generic term ceramic. I stand by my earlier comment - no way would I use these items externally, nor would I entertain your proposed method.

    But also give a little credit here. For generations mankind has bedded slabs on mortar set to falls and the jobs have been perfect. Use concrete at say 40-50mm (your choice) and the product choice, quality and durability cannot be faulted. However, you wish to cut the thickness to 20mm, suspend huge slabs on flimsy plastic corner legs and expect that to take impact loads from wheelbarrows being dropped, or the spinning blade of a lawn mower? Plus you have ignored my comments about slipping, about cracking, and about chipping.

    I am mystified why you are not taking the time proven, everyday, simple, cheap, way to form your patio. But that is your choice and I respect that.
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 9th May 18, 1:42 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    • #9
    • 9th May 18, 1:42 PM
    • #9
    • 9th May 18, 1:42 PM
    Porcelain tea services are white ceramic, my floor tiles are white ceramic, they are intended for showers and such like and it is almost certain they are porcelain. I use the generic term ceramic. I stand by my earlier comment - no way would I use these items externally, nor would I entertain your proposed method.

    But also give a little credit here. For generations mankind has bedded slabs on mortar set to falls and the jobs have been perfect. Use concrete at say 40-50mm (your choice) and the product choice, quality and durability cannot be faulted. However, you wish to cut the thickness to 20mm, suspend huge slabs on flimsy plastic corner legs and expect that to take impact loads from wheelbarrows being dropped, or the spinning blade of a lawn mower? Plus you have ignored my comments about slipping, about cracking, and about chipping.

    I am mystified why you are not taking the time proven, everyday, simple, cheap, way to form your patio. But that is your choice and I respect that.
    Originally posted by Furts
    Nothing is being ignored, i'm taking everything in - as I say nothing has been fully decided i'm looking for advice not for people to slate ideas that I put forward.

    Regards slipping the tiles I mentioned they are anti slip tiles. I was hoping the cracking and chipping wouldn't be an issue due to the thickness of them
    Going by what I have read porcelain doesn't stick to mortar hence the pedestals i've mentioned, these say they can take the weight of porcelain.

    We are after a smoother light grey slab, we haven't been able to find this in anything other than Porcelain.

    We have also read you need to treat Limestone and Sandstone slabs yearly which we don't want to do if we can avoid it.

    Sadly I came on here hoping for advice but getting very little advice and more of a grilling for asking!
    • Furts
    • By Furts 9th May 18, 2:22 PM
    • 4,450 Posts
    • 2,884 Thanks
    Furts
    Nothing is being ignored, i'm taking everything in - as I say nothing has been fully decided i'm looking for advice not for people to slate ideas that I put forward.

    Regards slipping the tiles I mentioned they are anti slip tiles. I was hoping the cracking and chipping wouldn't be an issue due to the thickness of them
    Going by what I have read porcelain doesn't stick to mortar hence the pedestals i've mentioned, these say they can take the weight of porcelain.

    We are after a smoother light grey slab, we haven't been able to find this in anything other than Porcelain.

    We have also read you need to treat Limestone and Sandstone slabs yearly which we don't want to do if we can avoid it.

    Sadly I came on here hoping for advice but getting very little advice and more of a grilling for asking!
    Originally posted by Matt19849
    You are getting advice. I have given advice over your MOT 1 materials, and I have advised on compaction. Your response has been to ignore both comments - no acknowledgement, no thanks. I have then advised on your porcelain but this time given a personal view. This is based on personal experience with this material. Again you decide to be negative. I have added constructive, factual, engineering based views on your slabs and your supports. Again you decide to be negative. I have suggested the time proven alternative method of laying and the time proven material. Again your response has been negative.

    Your method is trying to reinvent the wheel. It is risky and it is inappropriate for your project. The fact that you have no grasp of this does concern me. That is why i took the time to respond and to attempt to guide. Clearly you do not wish to take on board any decent advice. Consequently, I wish you well.
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 9th May 18, 2:30 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    You are getting advice. I have given advice over your MOT 1 materials, and I have advised on compaction. Your response has been to ignore both comments - no acknowledgement, no thanks. I have then advised on your porcelain but this time given a personal view. This is based on personal experience with this material. Again you decide to be negative. I have added constructive, factual, engineering based views on your slabs and your supports. Again you decide to be negative. I have suggested the time proven alternative method of laying and the time proven material. Again your response has been negative.

    Your method is trying to reinvent the wheel. It is risky and it is inappropriate for your project. The fact that you have no grasp of this does concern me. That is why i took the time to respond and to attempt to guide. Clearly you do not wish to take on board any decent advice. Consequently, I wish you well.
    Originally posted by Furts

    Fair do's - I appreciate all your advice and everything is taken on board!

    I'm not being awkward, not ignoring anything that is being said etc just still no clearer on what I should be doing

    Thanks for the Type 1 advice - that has been taken onboard.

    Regards not using the pedestals thats fine but when mortar apparently doesn't stick to porcelain i'm not sure the best way forward.
    With regards to not using porcelain, as I mentioned I haven't found the type of slab that we want to use other than this one (colour and smoother etc) so feel there is no other option at the moment.

    I'm not here to argue with people but if the answer is don't do it then it would be nice to have some alternatives if possible

    You mentioned you aren't sure why i'm not using the proven, cheap, easy method. That is mainly because we can't find the right colour slab so trying to find a solution for what we can find
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 9th May 18, 4:52 PM
    • 3,466 Posts
    • 9,025 Thanks
    Head The Ball
    ...We have also read you need to treat Limestone and Sandstone slabs yearly which we don't want to do if we can avoid it...
    Originally posted by Matt19849
    Treat with what?

    Last summer we had about 70 sq meters of Marshalls Indian Limestone laid in our back garden. No 'treatment' was applied after laying and we were not advised to 'treat' it.

    The advice we received, from an accredited Marshalls installer, was to rinse it off with a hose pipe and water if it got dirty. In our experience, rain is usually sufficient to keep it clean.

    A year later it still looks much as it did when laid. In the winter, a few patches of green algae appeared in the pointing but that disappeared after a hosing down without using any bleach or proprietary patio products.

    We are very pleased with it so I do suggest that you reconsider Limestone or Sandstone.

    I'll post a few pictures later.
    Last edited by Head The Ball; 09-05-2018 at 4:54 PM.
    Every Village has its Idiot.

    If you don't know who your Village Idiot is

    it is probably you.
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 9th May 18, 4:53 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    Treat with what?

    Last summer we had about 70 sq meters of Marshalls Indian Limestone laid in our back garden. No 'treatment' was applied after laying and we were not advised to 'treat' it.

    The advice we received, from an accredited Marshalls installer, was to rinse it off with a hose pipe and water if it got dirty.

    A year later it still looks much as it did when laid. There were a few patches of green algae in the pointing and that disappeared after a hosing down without using any bleach or proprietary patio products.

    We are very pleased with it so I do suggest that you reconsider Limestone or Sandstone.
    Originally posted by Head The Ball
    We were told by someone you would need to put a "sealer" on it every year to keep it looking new and in good condition....
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 9th May 18, 5:22 PM
    • 3,466 Posts
    • 9,025 Thanks
    Head The Ball
    This is what the Paving Expert has to say about sealing stone paving.

    But even more importantly, it should be noted that sealing of stone paving is not essential, mandatory or necessarily recommended. There is an urban myth, heavily promoted by those with a financial interest in selling and applying sealants, that all new stone paving should be sealed. The technical term for this is B******s
    More here.

    As far as I am aware, those comments apply to Indian Sandstone but I am not an expert so I may be wrong.
    Last edited by Head The Ball; 09-05-2018 at 5:24 PM.
    Every Village has its Idiot.

    If you don't know who your Village Idiot is

    it is probably you.
    • kerri gt
    • By kerri gt 9th May 18, 6:04 PM
    • 7,390 Posts
    • 50,876 Thanks
    kerri gt
    We looked at exterior porcelain slabs for a patio last year and for reasons I won't go into ended up going with sandstone - the place we looked at also had these pedestal install systems but we couldn't really see how these different from the dot dab type of installation only cowboys do.

    Given the choice again, we would go with the original porcelain slabs we wanted, bedded into a base pretty much the way you would lay an interior floor.
    Feb 2015 NSD Challenge 8/12
    JAN NSD 11/16


    • Furts
    • By Furts 9th May 18, 6:12 PM
    • 4,450 Posts
    • 2,884 Thanks
    Furts
    Fair do's - I appreciate all your advice and everything is taken on board!

    I'm not being awkward, not ignoring anything that is being said etc just still no clearer on what I should be doing

    Thanks for the Type 1 advice - that has been taken onboard.

    Regards not using the pedestals thats fine but when mortar apparently doesn't stick to porcelain i'm not sure the best way forward.
    With regards to not using porcelain, as I mentioned I haven't found the type of slab that we want to use other than this one (colour and smoother etc) so feel there is no other option at the moment.

    I'm not here to argue with people but if the answer is don't do it then it would be nice to have some alternatives if possible

    You mentioned you aren't sure why i'm not using the proven, cheap, easy method. That is mainly because we can't find the right colour slab so trying to find a solution for what we can find
    Originally posted by Matt19849
    I am pretty much out now, there is little point, and you are fixated on your porcelain and plastic supports. Bear in mind your 50mm stone is woefully inadequate for a sub base. Only you know your soil conditions but 75mm - 150mm would be typical. What finish goes on this and how do you level it to shape? On this you expect to sit small plastic supports - how do you propose to fix these down, level them up and then stop them moving? Onto this goes your porcelain and when I comment on chipping you say that the thickness will prevent this - which is an illogical reply.

    Marshalls are reputable company and everybody in landscaping and groundworks is aware of them. Head the Ball has mentioned this company - good on them - and now you are going at odds with them instead of me.

    In the nicest way possible, you clearly have no idea of what you are doing. Yes this forum exists to give help. Yes this can work if the good people posting are prepared to take the replies and analyse them.

    This time I am definitely out!
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 9th May 18, 6:47 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    I am pretty much out now, there is little point, and you are fixated on your porcelain and plastic supports. Bear in mind your 50mm stone is woefully inadequate for a sub base. Only you know your soil conditions but 75mm - 150mm would be typical. What finish goes on this and how do you level it to shape? On this you expect to sit small plastic supports - how do you propose to fix these down, level them up and then stop them moving? Onto this goes your porcelain and when I comment on chipping you say that the thickness will prevent this - which is an illogical reply.

    Marshalls are reputable company and everybody in landscaping and groundworks is aware of them. Head the Ball has mentioned this company - good on them - and now you are going at odds with them instead of me.

    In the nicest way possible, you clearly have no idea of what you are doing. Yes this forum exists to give help. Yes this can work if the good people posting are prepared to take the replies and analyse them.

    This time I am definitely out!
    Originally posted by Furts

    Furts- please stop posting on this thread, you're making this very pointless. I'm not sure how many times I have to mention I haven't paid for anything and i'm still open to advice.
    Not once did I say I was dead set on porcelain, i did say i'm struggling to find the right slab at the moment and porcelain is the only one that looks right - that isn't me saying i'm 100% going with porcelain at the moment.
    Thanks for the heads up on the sub base - i'll consider deeper - this was the first time that has been bought up and as I previously mentioned i'm after advice, I read somewhere 50mm was enough so this is me checking!
    As for the plastic supports, like I previously said i'm unsure what else to use as mortar apparently doesn't stick to porcelain - again if someone has a better solution for sticking porcelain down then i'm all ears
    I've been looking at Marshalls and will be showing my partner tonight so again that wasn't ignored, I just wasn't aware I had to give a minute by minute update on everything i'm doing/taking form the responses

    Please stick to your word though and don't post anymore on this thread.
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 9th May 18, 6:49 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    This is what the Paving Expert has to say about sealing stone paving.



    More here.

    As far as I am aware, those comments apply to Indian Sandstone but I am not an expert so I may be wrong.
    Originally posted by Head The Ball
    Thanks for that link, it sounds like i've been fed wrong advice so i'll have a good read on that page and maybe re-consider limestone
    • Matt19849
    • By Matt19849 9th May 18, 6:50 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Matt19849
    We looked at exterior porcelain slabs for a patio last year and for reasons I won't go into ended up going with sandstone - the place we looked at also had these pedestal install systems but we couldn't really see how these different from the dot dab type of installation only cowboys do.

    Given the choice again, we would go with the original porcelain slabs we wanted, bedded into a base pretty much the way you would lay an interior floor.
    Originally posted by kerri gt
    Is there a reason you would chose porcelain over the sandstone if you could do it again?
    Everyone else seems to think sandstone/limestone is the better option at the moment
    • kerri gt
    • By kerri gt 9th May 18, 7:14 PM
    • 7,390 Posts
    • 50,876 Thanks
    kerri gt
    Is there a reason you would chose porcelain over the sandstone if you could do it again?
    Everyone else seems to think sandstone/limestone is the better option at the moment
    Originally posted by Matt19849
    We chose porcelain as our first option because it was the colour / finish we wanted. We then had quotes back and basically (steering clear of the plastic support system) were advised you need to lay the slabs a bit like you were laying them inside, so putting down a concrete base / floor then applying the slabs on top like tiling a floor (that's a very rough method overview) The quotes came back as expensive because it is in effect more like laying two patios with the two step process (the concrete base which needs to be level - and dry, then the slabs)

    We were, by in large talked out of using porcelain by the contractor we chose who could do other aspects of the job other contractors couldn't but he had never laid porcelain before, wasn't overly happy doing it and it was looking very costly - so we went with sandstone as giving a similar look / finish to what we wanted.

    Overall the sandstone slabs do look good - but knowing what we know now, we would not be led by a contractor like that again and in hindsight, should have gone with the company happy to lay our original choice.

    Incidentally I tried the particular porcelain slabs outside at the showroom on a wet day with Ugg boots on ... the ones we tried were definitely not slippy.
    Feb 2015 NSD Challenge 8/12
    JAN NSD 11/16


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