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    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 7th May 18, 3:21 PM
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    seven-day-weekend
    Questions about PIP
    • #1
    • 7th May 18, 3:21 PM
    Questions about PIP 7th May 18 at 3:21 PM
    I have been helping my son's partner to fill in her PIP form and by my reckoning she should score four points each on 7C and 9c. She does need help in these areas.....

    .....however not always. Sometimes she is worse than others. She has put down that she needs the support 50% of the time for 7c and 40% of the time for 9c.

    Will it score if she does not need the support all the time?

    (She previously was awarded DLA Low rate care and mobility about 5-6 years ago).

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system
Page 2
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 8th May 18, 3:22 AM
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    seven-day-weekend
    What questionnaire? As they haven't yet returned the PIP forms then the GP wouldn't have been sent anything to fill out yet. It's very rare that they contact anyone for evidence, the onus is on the claimant to make sure it's sent in with the form. Are you thinking about a form that was sent for a past DLA claim?

    You say the evidence was sent with the DLA form? This is now a PIP application and evidence must be sent to support the claim.

    You also say it's mainly communication problems. If this is correct then they may find it very difficult to be awarded anything at all.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    This is what she has told me. As she has communication problems she may have misunderstood.

    Please understand, she has only asked me at the last minute for help, I had to just go in cold and do my best.

    And if she is not entitled to it, then sobeit, we can't make things up just so she fits the criteria.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 8th May 18, 5:57 AM
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    poppy12345
    This is what she has told me. As she has communication problems she may have misunderstood.

    Please understand, she has only asked me at the last minute for help, I had to just go in cold and do my best.

    And if she is not entitled to it, then sobeit, we can't make things up just so she fits the criteria.
    Originally posted by seven-day-weekend
    No one has asked you to make things up. You posted for advice and you've been given lots of it. I wish them good luck.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 8th May 18, 6:46 AM
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    seven-day-weekend
    I thank everyone for their advice and will ask her this morning to apply for an extension so that she can find the Ed Psych assessment.

    However, I do not see any point in revamping what she has written on the form. She still will only have those two criteria. That was all she had last time for the Asperger's, although she did have another criterion for a physical condition which doesn't seem to fit anywhere on this form.

    ETA, later: She now has her evidence sorted from the Ed Psych and a deadline of 25th May

    Thanks once again for your help.
    Last edited by seven-day-weekend; 08-05-2018 at 12:26 PM.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 8th May 18, 12:45 PM
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    Alice Holt
    PIP is a very different benefit to DLA.
    It is points based and quite prescriptive.

    With DLA you could set out the condition(s), and show how these gave rise to care needs or supervision. A low rate care award was made for someone having care needs during part of the day.
    With PIP you need to understand the descriptors, and then fit the condition to individual descriptors to get to the necessary 8 points.
    For some conditions, this can be difficult because you need to describe the problems the person encounters day-to-day using solely the limited activities listed on the PIP form.

    So, someone (say) on the autism spectrum may also be very anxious. The ASD would make social engagement very difficult, the ./anxiety may impact on the activities around food or budgeting. Thus getting up to 8 points on the form.
    For people who also suffered from depression, then the descriptors around prompting would come into play.
    For people with OCD, then you are looking at not being able to do the descriptors reliably because it takes twice as long to, say, dress / wash / prepare food etc due to needing to go through mental or physical routines, constantly returning to the same activity, unable to move to the next thing until these routines are completed.

    This is not "making things up", it's fully describing the difficulties encountered by that person in terms of the parameters set by the PIP regulations. It will (ultimately) be down to an appeal tribunal to determine if those difficulties are sufficient for a PIP award.
    Remember that PIP was introduced with the aim to cut disability payments by 20%. PIP does not have a equivalent band to low rate DLA.

    If someone is unsteady on their feet (you haven't told us what the physical difficulty is), then they are likely to need aids for preparing food (perching stool), getting on and off the toilet safely (rails), showering (rails or a shower seat), dressing (a sock grabber). This can get to the necessary 8 points.
    Very often there will be a mixture of physical and mental health points.

    You haven't answered my question about activity 7. Having read the assessment guide, do you think that still applies?
    With more details of your daughter in law's condition (what is this physical condition?) we might have been able to give you more focused advice on the form. Without this, I can only give suggestions in generic terms.

    My final thought is that (if you have descriptor 7 on the form), then you should add difficulties with
    budgeting, as her poor understanding and communications skills would impact on that activity.
    Look a the PIP assessment guide or Benefits & Work for more info on how to phrase this on the form.
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 08-05-2018 at 1:03 PM.
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 8th May 18, 2:36 PM
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    seven-day-weekend
    Her physical condition is a damaged eardrum, which she has had since she was a child. On the DLA form there were descriptors for maintaining balance, which there don't appear to be on the PIP form, and I think she gained some points because sometimes she loses her balance and falls over.

    I still think she fits descriptor 7. She is diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. She doesn't always understand complex instructions, especially if there is more than one instruction in it. as in your example, or if it is a list such as 'go to the shop and get teabags, then go to the pharmacy and get ibruprofen, aspirin and a comb and on the way back just drop in on old Mrs Jones and make sure she is OK'. She might need to have them one at a time or written down. However, if she is having a 'good' day, then she will remember the list, hence the 50%. We thought we were doing the right thing by saying how often this is a problem to her.

    Often people have to repeat what they said a different way or use a different format, such as writing it down.

    She can't always communicate herself either. She goes off at tangents and finds it hard to say what she means.

    She has outlined her difficulties,including the ones about social engagement, and the resulting anxiety and stress it causes her, on the form.

    Her intelligence is fine. She has just completed a degree course, It is the processing of information that is the problem. She had a mentor and a scribe at Uni.

    She is able to make decisions about budgeting. She doesn't always carry them out, but it is not becasue she does not understand. There was an occasion where she owed money to the bank and she came to an arrangement herself and carried it out. I read a discussion on this forum once where someone was asking if they could use that descriptor because they were bad with money, and they were told no, it is for people who don't understand how to budget, don't know which coin is which or how much change they should be receiving etc.

    (Looking at other things in your post, my son, who also has AS, could also fulfil some of the descriptors. He takes ages to get ready to get anywhere because he can't organise himself enough to have his clothes, wallet, bus fare, phone, keys etc ready at the same time. He always allows himself twice as long as anyone else would. His organising and sequencing skills are very weak. He can't find his way to strange places, can't remember the route if he has asked someone (he has to ask again at every corner) and gets stressed if he has to go on public transport. He also has associated dyspraxic traits- for example he has never learned to tie a tie - on the few occasions he has to wear one his partner does it for him. He also has a degree of dyscalculia. However he has never been formally diagnosed because we didn't know his 'oddness' had a name until he was in his late 20s and he saw no point in being formally diagnosed (he has been informally diagnosed by a personal friend who deals in such things.) He has pretty much learned managing strategies. He has never seen it as a disability and in fact looks after his partner when she is having difficulties . In fact they look after each other. He has never claimed, nor attempted to claim, any benefits for his condition. )
    Last edited by seven-day-weekend; 08-05-2018 at 3:09 PM.
    • Ames
    • By Ames 8th May 18, 3:04 PM
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    Ames
    No-one's suggesting you make things up to get an award. You won't find any of the reputable regulars advocating fraud. What we're saying is that you need to understand the criteria to know what applies.

    (I've been using 'you' to mean you and your son's partner, not just you yourself).

    Balance problems would probably affect showering and cooking. Is she safe picking a pan of boiling water off the cooker and moving it to a table? Is she likely to fall in the shower?

    Her intelligence is fine. She has just completed a degree course, It is the processing of information that is the problem.
    No-one's suggesting otherwise. Plenty of intelligent people have difficulties functioning that qualify them for PIP. When we say 'she might have trouble with x' we're not criticising her or judging her, it's not an insult. It's often easy for a claimant and people around them to not realise where they're having trouble. They've figured ways around an issue, and been using them for years, and can't see the original issue anymore.

    I read a discussion on this forum once where someone was asking if they could use that descriptor because they were bad with money, and they were told no, it is for people who don't understand how to budget, don't know which coin is which or how much change they should be receiving etc.
    I read that discussion and disagreed. PIP is about different levels of difficulty. Someone at that level of need would score high points, but there are lower points available for people who are more capable than that.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 8th May 18, 3:22 PM
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    seven-day-weekend
    No-one's suggesting you make things up to get an award. You won't find any of the reputable regulars advocating fraud. [U]I know that and wasn't insinuating anyone would. I just meant we couldn't put what wasn't there[/U].What we're saying is that you need to understand the criteria to know what applies.

    (I've been using 'you' to mean you and your son's partner, not just you yourself).

    Balance problems would probably affect showering and cooking. Is she safe picking a pan of boiling water off the cooker and moving it to a table? Yes Is she likely to fall in the shower? I think it is possible.



    No-one's suggesting otherwise. Plenty of intelligent people have difficulties functioning that qualify them for PIP. When we say 'she might have trouble with x' we're not criticising her or judging her, it's not an insult. It's often easy for a claimant and people around them to not realise where they're having trouble. They've figured ways around an issue, and been using them for years, and can't see the original issue anymore. Agreed - see my edit at the end of my post above, about my son



    I read that discussion and disagreed. PIP is about different levels of difficulty. Someone at that level of need would score high points, but there are lower points available for people who are more capable than that.
    Originally posted by Ames
    See my comments in blue.
    Last edited by seven-day-weekend; 08-05-2018 at 3:24 PM.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 8th May 18, 3:38 PM
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    Alice Holt
    "sometimes she loses her balance and falls over."

    In which case she may need an aid for safety when showering (see my post above);
    Also when preparing food - a perching stool (see my post above)??
    There has recently been some case law on risk of such events happening. If there is risk of harm then the 50% of the time rule is overridden.

    https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2017/april/risk-harm-need-not-be-%E2%80%98more-likely-not%E2%80%99-when-assessing-pip

    EDIT: I see Ames has picked up on these same points


    Perhaps also frame activity 7 in terms of her ASD meaning that she can't understand facial expressions, sarcasm, non-literal queues, etc and needs someone to interpret those for her. In order that she can interact in a contextually appropriate manner.
    The need for some to interpret verbal information into a non-verbal form is well worth illustrating on the form.

    But it is rather a moot point as to whether points can be scored in both activities 7 & 9 for what is essentially the same condition. That's why I would try to have some other activities on the form.
    I think you are looking at the form too narrowly, I certainly wouldn't rule out managing household budgets as a difficulty for her. Remember reliably, as Ames says most people have coping strategies - that doesn't mean they can do these activities to the PIP required standard without aids or assistance.
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 08-05-2018 at 3:55 PM. Reason: Cross posted with Ames.
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 8th May 18, 5:47 PM
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    seven-day-weekend
    "sometimes she loses her balance and falls over."

    In which case she may need an aid for safety when showering (see my post above); But she doesn't!
    Also when preparing food - a perching stool (see my post above)??
    There has recently been some case law on risk of such events happening. If there is risk of harm then the 50% of the time rule is overridden. She does not use any of these aids

    https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2017/april/risk-harm-need-not-be-%E2%80%98more-likely-not%E2%80%99-when-assessing-pip

    EDIT: I see Ames has picked up on these same points


    Perhaps also frame activity 7 in terms of her ASD meaning that she can't understand facial expressions, sarcasm, non-literal queues, etc and needs someone to interpret those for her. In order that she can interact in a contextually appropriate manner.
    The need for some to interpret verbal information into a non-verbal form is well worth illustrating on the form. [U]Yes this is valid and we must put this on the form. She does not understand certain types of humour and often has to ask my son if something is meant to be funny,[/U]

    But it is rather a moot point as to whether points can be scored in both activities 7 & 9 for what is essentially the same condition. That's why I would try to have some other activities on the form.
    I think you are looking at the form too narrowly, I certainly wouldn't rule out managing household budgets as a difficulty for her. Remember reliably, as Ames says most people have coping strategies - that doesn't mean they can do these activities to the PIP required standard without aids or assistance.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    See my comments in blue above.
    • Ames
    • By Ames 8th May 18, 6:18 PM
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    Ames
    It doesn't matter whether or not she uses aids, it's whether she needs them.

    It also doesn't matter whether she gets social support or prompting, it's whether she needs it.

    Although it's quite possible she's getting social support or prompting, it's just that everyone's so used to that just being 'how it is' that they don't realise it counts.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.
    • Danday
    • By Danday 8th May 18, 7:10 PM
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    Danday

    I still think she fits descriptor 7. She is diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. She doesn't always understand complex instructions, especially if there is more than one instruction in it. as in your example, or if it is a list such as 'go to the shop and get teabags, then go to the pharmacy and get ibruprofen, aspirin and a comb and on the way back just drop in on old Mrs Jones and make sure she is OK'. She might need to have them one at a time or written down. However, if she is having a 'good' day, then she will remember the list, hence the 50%. We thought we were doing the right thing by saying how often this is a problem to her.
    Originally posted by seven-day-weekend
    Can I add a little there which may help.
    You mention that she doesn't understand complex instructions.

    Have you suggested that given your example she be always given a list of things to do or get as opposed to being told and having to remember them?

    Myself and many others I know have to write down the itinerary of where to go and what to do when they get there. It solves the problem of forgetting. I never leave the house without such a list - go the chemist to collect a prescription, then the newsagent to get two bottles of milk (one green the other blue caps) and a newspaper, then go to the post office to post the birthday card and finally pick up granddaughter from school at 3pm.

    With my PIP claim I make no mention of that difficulty as it has been resolved in its entirety.
    Last edited by Danday; 08-05-2018 at 7:13 PM.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 8th May 18, 7:22 PM
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    poppy12345
    "I think newcomers to this forum need to bear in mind that this is a public site on which anyone can post. You can't assume information is trustworthy, indeed some posters are known to disrupt, post disinformation, and tell tall stories.

    I would caution newcomers to be wary of any advice supplied that doesn't contain a link to an authoritative site. Such sites include adviceguide, entitled to, turn2us, revenuebenefits.
    Accredited benefit advice is available from local advice agencies such as Citizens Advice.

    Please don't take horror stories about benefit assessments, appeals etc at face value. There are posters on here who whose aim seems to be to alarm, frighten, and generally dissuade OP's from pursuing sensible actions to claim / regain the right benefits.

    Harmful and misleading posters are easily identified by the reaction to their posts
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 8th May 18, 8:33 PM
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    seven-day-weekend
    Can I add a little there which may help.
    You mention that she doesn't understand complex instructions.

    Have you suggested that given your example she be always given a list of things to do or get as opposed to being told and having to remember them?

    Myself and many others I know have to write down the itinerary of where to go and what to do when they get there. It solves the problem of forgetting. I never leave the house without such a list - go the chemist to collect a prescription, then the newsagent to get two bottles of milk (one green the other blue caps) and a newspaper, then go to the post office to post the birthday card and finally pick up granddaughter from school at 3pm.

    With my PIP claim I make no mention of that difficulty as it has been resolved in its entirety.
    Originally posted by Danday
    She often does have a list. That was just an example.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 10th May 18, 5:55 AM
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    seven-day-weekend
    Well for better or worse, the form is posted.

    We took the advice of this discussion and took out anything mentioning 50%. We added a lot more about her conditions, both physical and mental, things she finds difficult. We mentioned in detail how she has to ask friends and family for help in understanding what to most people are everyday scenarios, about how she doesn't 'get' body language or understand certain types of humour and does not know whether people are lying or not. Also other things like not understanding official letters and forms and having to have them explained to her. She has outlined the distress and anxiety that many social situations cause her. Other things too, she has filled up the form and used a separate continuation sheet.

    We mentioned how her eardrum problem causes her to lose balance and fall which could put her in danger in the kitchen, bath, shower or outside and that she can not hear the tv and has to use subtitles.

    She also now has found her Ed Psych report and sent a copy of that in with the form.

    Thanks all for your help. I will update the thread as and when.
    Last edited by seven-day-weekend; 10-05-2018 at 6:09 AM.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 10th May 18, 7:07 AM
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    poppy12345
    Well for better or worse, the form is posted.
    Originally posted by seven-day-weekend
    Did your son ring DWP for extra time? If not then i'd advice he do this today. You said it has to be there by Friday, which is tomorrow. The form won't arrive by this date as you've only recently posted it. If it doesn't arrive then the DLA payments will stop.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 10th May 18, 8:30 AM
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    seven-day-weekend
    Did your son ring DWP for extra time? If not then i'd advice he do this today. You said it has to be there by Friday, which is tomorrow. The form won't arrive by this date as you've only recently posted it. If it doesn't arrive then the DLA payments will stop.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    My son's partner did, yes. It is her claim
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