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  • FIRST POST
    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 6th May 18, 3:56 PM
    • 14Posts
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    allcomplainsgohere
    Smart Parking NTK x 4, POPLA appeal help plus questions
    • #1
    • 6th May 18, 3:56 PM
    Smart Parking NTK x 4, POPLA appeal help plus questions 6th May 18 at 3:56 PM
    First time posting and in need of some brief advice before proceeding with a POPLA appeal. Have read the stickies, but still have some doubts due to my circumstances.

    My case. I was asked by a friend to feed his cats for 2 days so drove to his flat and parked downstairs in the morning and evening. 4 parking instances in total, each time for about 15 minutes. Didn’t realize the venue is parking controlled as there is no marked parking bay on the ground. The first offence was recorded on 29Mar2018.

    13 days later, on 11Apr2018 I received 4 NTK (dated on 10Apr2018) from Smart Parking at my home address, each stating that my license plate was captured by ANPR entering and exiting the venue and demanding 60GBP payment with 14 days.

    Not realizing the great resources in this forum, I stupidly squandered my chance by appealing online at Smart Parking saying “The reason for parking there is to help a friend to feed his cat in the morning & evening. At each instance, the amount of time parked there was less than 15 minutes. I didn’t realize that this place is parking controlled and believe it is unfair to be fined 4 times.” Later on, I found this forum and read Newbies thread and use the blue template to appeal online with Smart Parking but I felt it may be too late.

    21 days later on 4May2018, I received letter from Smart Parking at home address rejecting my online appeal and stating “Please by advised that we have noted your most recent appeals stating that there would be no admittance to the driver and that no assumption should be drawn. However within your initial appeal suggested you have admitted to driving on the date of the contravention, the PCN will progress in your name.” Now I realized I totally screwed my online appeal.

    I was given a POPLA verification code and am now planning a POPLA appeal. My plan is to use MikeHammer’s example: "POPLA Appeal (ECP) - Successful - not contested" and argue on the same 9 grounds but with my own customizations on each ground to suit my case.

    My questions are:
    1 Can I still argue on item (3) operator has not shown that individual who it is persuing is in fact the driver? and item (4) no evidence of period parked, since I’ve already mistakenly identified myself as the drive in the online appeal?
    2. Given my circumstance, if I manage to present evidence for all 9 grounds mentioned by MikeHammer, is there a chance for me to be successful in POPLA appeal?

    Thanks in advance for all inputs.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th May 18, 4:42 PM
    • 59,409 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 6th May 18, 4:42 PM
    • #2
    • 6th May 18, 4:42 PM
    MikeHammer's is quite old, I would not go with that. Try a much more recent ANPR surveillance camera breach of the ICO Code argument example, by searching the forum for those words. Or 'ICO guinea pig POPLA' finds one written by a poster last month, to test the new appeal point among all the others.

    How on earth can Smart operate a residential car park by ANPR? Is it a shared retail area?

    Does your friend have to register his vehicle or display a permit?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 7th May 18, 7:48 AM
    • 14 Posts
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    allcomplainsgohere
    • #3
    • 7th May 18, 7:48 AM
    • #3
    • 7th May 18, 7:48 AM
    Many thanks for your quick replay CM. Yes the area is shared retail area. Unfortunately my friend's permit does not cover that area.

    I will upload my POPLA appeal using "ANPR surveillance camera breach of the ICO Code" plus MikeHammer's defence later on.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 7th May 18, 10:22 AM
    • 9,690 Posts
    • 9,521 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 7th May 18, 10:22 AM
    • #4
    • 7th May 18, 10:22 AM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th May 18, 12:12 AM
    • 59,409 Posts
    • 72,563 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 8th May 18, 12:12 AM
    • #5
    • 8th May 18, 12:12 AM
    Unfortunately my friend's permit does not cover that area.
    Do the Smart signs cover the residential area, thoroughly, beside the residential spaces?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 8th May 18, 12:45 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    • #6
    • 8th May 18, 12:45 AM
    Draft POPLA appeal
    • #6
    • 8th May 18, 12:45 AM
    Hello all, below is my draft POPLA appeal. Please replace xx in the link below with tt.
    hxxps://drive.google.com/file/d/1NDbse8tI5VbU78etxp8YIGSPJZqjXdNy/view

    I argued from the following 9 points (with 'ICO Code of Practice'
    applicable to ANPR clause). All comments are appreciated.

    1) Grace Period: BPA Code of Practice–non-compliance
    2) There are no entrance signs for the regular entry and signs in this car
    park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces.
    Furthermore, there is no marked parking bay at the location nor boundary
    of the venue
    3) No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict
    proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
    4) Failure to comply with the data protection 'ICO Code of Practice'
    applicable to ANPR (no information about SAR rights, no privacy statement,
    no evaluation to justify that 24/7 ANPR enforcement at this site is justified,
    fair and proportionate). A serious BPA CoP breach
    5) No Evidence of Period Parked – NtK does not meet PoFA2012
    requirements
    6) Vehicle Images contained in PCN: BPA Code of Practice –
    non-compliance
    7) The ANPR System is Neither Reliable nor Accurate
    8) The Signs Fail to Transparently Warn Drivers of what the ANPR Data
    will be used for
    9) No Planning Permission from [XXX] Borough Council for Pole-Mounted
    ANPR Cameras and no Advertising Consent for signage
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th May 18, 8:20 AM
    • 2,803 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 8th May 18, 8:20 AM
    • #7
    • 8th May 18, 8:20 AM
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NDbse8tI5VbU78etxp8YIGSPJZqjXdNy/view

    Is there no way you can host it as an image? I cant check it, but make sure there is NOTHING giving your identity, for example gogle drive username...
    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 8th May 18, 11:44 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    • #8
    • 8th May 18, 11:44 AM
    • #8
    • 8th May 18, 11:44 AM
    Do the Smart signs cover the residential area, thoroughly, beside the residential spaces?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I think there are some signs around that area. But there doesn't seem to be any sign of boundaries as to exactly which area does Smart cover
    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 8th May 18, 4:14 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    • #9
    • 8th May 18, 4:14 PM
    • #9
    • 8th May 18, 4:14 PM

    Is there no way you can host it as an image? I cant check it, but make sure there is NOTHING giving your identity, for example gogle drive username...
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Many thanks for the reminder. I've created a new google drive specifically for this appeal
    Appreciate if you could take a look and let me know your thougths
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th May 18, 4:46 PM
    • 59,409 Posts
    • 72,563 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would add to your point #7, because POPLA get this horribly wrong and I would deliberately put the bit in capitals/underlined, that I have:

    In terms of the technology of the ANPR cameras themselves, POPLA please take note and bin your usual 'ANPR is generally OK' template because:

    The British Parking Association DOES NOT AUDIT the ANPR systems in use by parking operators, and the BPA has NO WAY to ensure that the systems are in good working order or that the data collected is accurate. Independent research has NOT found that the technology is 'generally accurate' or proportionate, or reliable at all, and this is one of the reasons why Councils are banned from using it in car parks.

    As proof of this assertion here are two statements by the BPA themselves, the first one designed to stop POPLA falling into error about assumed audits:

    Steve Clark, Head of Operational Services at the BPA emailed a POPLA 'wrong decision' victim back in January 2018 regarding this repeated misinformation about BPA somehow doing 'ANPR system audits', and Mr Clark says:

    "You were concerned about a comment from the POPLA assessor who determined your case which said:

    "In terms of the technology of the cameras themselves, the British Parking Association audits the camera systems in use by parking operators in order to ensure that they are in good working order and that the data collected is accurate"

    You believe that this statement may have been a contributory factor to the POPLA decision going against you, and required answers to a number of questions from us.

    This is not a statement that I have seen POPLA use before and therefore I queried it with them, as we do not conduct the sort of assessments that the Assessor alludes to.

    POPLA have conceded that the Assessor's comments may have been a misrepresentation of Clause 21.3 of the BPA Code which says:

    ''21.3 You must keep any ANPR equipment you use in your car parks in good working order. You need to make sure the data you are collecting is accurate, securely held and cannot be tampered with. The processes that you use to manage your ANPR system may be audited by our compliance team or our agents.''

    Our auditors check operators compliance with this Code clause and not the cameras themselves.''


    Secondly, ANPR data processing and/or system failure is well known, and is certainly inappropriate in a mixed retail and residential area, such as the location in question. The BPA even warned about ANPR flaws:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Other-Advice#4

    ''As with all new technology, there are issues associated with its use'' and they specifically mention the flaw of assuming that 'drive in, drive out' events are parking events. They state that: ''Reputable operators tend not to uphold charge certificates issued in this manner''.

    In this case, as the driver drove in and briefly stopped where there are no signs or bays at all (not in any retail area, but at a private residence not signed as being managed by Smart Parking) the ANPR system has indeed failed and the operator has breached the first data protection principle by processing flawed data from their system.

    Excessive use of ANPR 24/7 when such blanket coverage is overkill in terms of data processing, was also condemned by the BPA and the ICO:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/excessive-use-of-anpr-cameras-for-enforcement

    As POPLA can see from that, excessive use of ANPR is in fact, illegal, and no-one audits it except for the ICO when the public, or groups, make complaints.

    Smart are put to strict proof that the system has not failed visitors to the residential homes within this site.

    POPLA cannot use your usual 'the BPA audits it' erroneous template which needs consigning to the bin.

    Please show the above email from Steve Clark, to your Lead Adjudicator.

    Kindly stop assuming ANPR systems work, and expecting consumers to prove the impossible about the workings of a system over which they have no control but where independent and publicly available information about its inherent failings is very readily available.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 8th May 18, 5:52 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    I would add to your point #7, because POPLA get this horribly wrong and I would deliberately put the bit in capitals/underlined, that I have:
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Really appreciate the comment CM . I've modified the appeal accordingly. The updated version can be accessed via the link below. (replace xx with tt)

    hxxps://drive.google.com/file/d/1v_W_UseWdI_d_9WWMUfVecx0uDUYOwKs/view
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 8th May 18, 5:59 PM
    • 2,813 Posts
    • 1,704 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Here is your live link: -
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v_W_UseWdI_d_9WWMUfVecx0uDUYOwKs/view
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th May 18, 6:12 PM
    • 59,409 Posts
    • 72,563 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Go for it. I fully expect Smart parking to offer 'no contest' which is a shame.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 8th May 18, 7:47 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    Go for it. I fully expect Smart parking to offer 'no contest' which is a shame.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks CM. I will upload the appeal and keep you updated
    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 17th May 18, 4:24 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    Go for it. I fully expect Smart parking to offer 'no contest' which is a shame.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Just like you said CM, today I received an email from POPLA saying Smart Parking does not wish to contest the Appeal.

    Many thanks for your help
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th May 18, 1:52 AM
    • 59,409 Posts
    • 72,563 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Course they did! Easy isn't it!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 18th May 18, 1:32 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    Course they did! Easy isn't it!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Absolutely, they can't be bothered.

    Shame didn't get the chance to test the new privacy argument re ANPR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th May 18, 1:36 PM
    • 59,409 Posts
    • 72,563 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    But your POPLA appeal has done some good, please don't delete the Google Drive link because I have linked it in the NEWBIES thread post #3 as a very good long example, for newbies to look at and copy from!

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • allcomplainsgohere
    • By allcomplainsgohere 21st May 18, 1:48 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    allcomplainsgohere
    But your POPLA appeal has done some good, please don't delete the Google Drive link because I have linked it in the NEWBIES thread post #3 as a very good long example, for newbies to look at and copy from!

    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Sure I will keep the link alive for good.

    I wonder if there could be any POPLA argument based on the new General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) ?

    Is that normal that Smart Parking still keep my tickets in there system even after their loss in POPLA appeal?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 21st May 18, 2:14 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    POPLA will be uttelry incapable of understanding GDPR.
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