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  • FIRST POST
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 5th May 18, 9:16 PM
    • 56Posts
    • 7Thanks
    Lunek
    PLEASE HELP! Court Claim for residential parking fines!
    • #1
    • 5th May 18, 9:16 PM
    PLEASE HELP! Court Claim for residential parking fines! 5th May 18 at 9:16 PM
    Hello there,
    Iíve read the NEWBIES thread and other ones but couldnít see any similar situations.
    I received Court Claim Form for parking fines (UKPC)
    I live in a block of flats with private car park. You need the permit to park here. There are coded gates to the car park.
    My flat is from the council and when I moved in in 2016 I was told there was no permits for council tenants and that they were sorting it and I should get one within few weeks (in reality it took almost a year). I was told I will get fine if I park my car there and the same thing says in my tenancy agreement.
    I tried to keep my car elsewhere but sometimes I had no choice but to park in the car park because my children were very young at the time and often fell asleep in the car. Iím a single mum and thereís nowhere to park near my place.
    I received 5 fines in total which I ignored (I know...not wise!) Now I received Court Claim Form. I have acknowledged it online without writing any defence.
    I donít really know where to start and how I can defend myself in this case. I canít get any photos of the signage because UKPC is no longer in charge of this car park.
    I was thinking about settlement, offering them me paying for the permits from the day I moved in which would be 10 months of £25. But not sure it will work.
    Can someone Please give me some guidance ? I donít think I can handle it on my own !!!128584;
Page 4
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 4th Aug 18, 8:19 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Thanks for that but that doesn!!!8217;t give much help. I don!!!8217;t even know what I could possibly write in that witness statement. I!!!8217;ve just read my defence again and the only thing I can point out is the fact that I wasn!!!8217;t the driver of the vehicle. What proof or evidence can I possibly provide.
    The signage on the gate says: !!!8220;permit holders only!!!8221; and there was no permit on my car and my car got 6 invoices.
    The housing association completely ignored me.
    I!!!8217;m really stressed out.
    I need legal advice from someone who deals with those cases.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 4th Aug 18, 10:10 PM
    • 1,183 Posts
    • 2,246 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Now you have a copy of the sign what does it say. The postings on this forum are only as good as the info you provide.

    So insofar as I can tell, your case is:

    1. You weren't driving on ALL occasions that you were ticketed;
    2. You have no allocated parking space
    3. You were however promised a permit to parking the car park (and did eventually get one)
    4. You signed the tenancy agreement on the understanding that you would have a permit within 14 days.
    5. The PPC existed to enforce parking against non-residents and at all material times you were a resident.

    Nothing to say. Think again...
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 5th Aug 18, 7:07 AM
    • 3,583 Posts
    • 5,936 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    I need legal advice from someone who deals with those cases.
    Legal advice can only be given by those legally qualified AND authorised such the Law Society AND who you have paid for advice.

    As this can be expensive the next best thing is advice from people who have been here before and may be legally qualified. I'd pay close attention to Johnersh's advice above.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 9th Aug 18, 2:43 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Thank you @johnersh.

    Your advice is much appreciated.

    I will try to put something together. It is just so time consuming as I can not understand most of the things that I am reading and having to translate it into my own language.
    And I have never been to court before and I am scared because I dont know what to expect, how to talk to them etc
    That is why I have been asking for proper help even if I have to pay for it.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Aug 18, 2:51 PM
    • 9,741 Posts
    • 10,095 Thanks
    KeithP
    This video may help:
    .
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 10th Aug 18, 6:42 AM
    • 3,583 Posts
    • 5,936 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    And I have never been to court before and I am scared because I dont know what to expect, how to talk to them etc
    If you need an interpreter, you can check to see if they will let you have one

    https://www.gov.uk/get-interpreter-at-court-or-tribunal

    Court at this level is very simple. You speak normally and it is just like a job interview. You'll be asked questions and you give your answer to the best of your knowledge.

    And like an interview you bring along paperwork to support what you are saying. People will believe you but they want the paperwork to confirm.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 14th Aug 18, 2:24 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Hi. I have been researching some witness statements. Found a couple in newbies. Does it have to be long?
    Also if I say I was not the driver at all occasions do I have to explain that there was another driver on my car insurance? (I stated that in my defence) If so do I have to provide a proof of that?

    If I did not provide the name of the driver can UKPC bring this claim against the Registered Keeper by law?

    And if I say I was not the driver do I still have to argue with them about the signage and the fact that I was awaiting my permit?

    Thank you in advance
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Aug 18, 5:23 PM
    • 10,238 Posts
    • 10,131 Thanks
    The Deep
    In residential cases, imo it is better for the person whose name is on the lease to fight the claim. Keepper identitiy is not an issue.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Aug 18, 5:24 PM
    • 62,736 Posts
    • 75,656 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If I did not provide the name of the driver can UKPC bring this claim against the Registered Keeper by law?
    Yes, you know that from the POFA 2012, linked in the NEWBIES thread.

    Please read the example WS in the NEWBIES thread, there are several, not just a couple.
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 15th Aug 18, 1:17 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Thank you for your responses.

    @Coupon-mad I know there is more than couple but only 2 are actually helpful in my case. A lot of them point out paragraphs from Claimants WS which I havent got yet.

    I would like to know whether it is relevant to mention in my WS about the poor signage? The problem is I dont have any photos apart from the ones that UKPC sent as a response to my SAR. They dont manage the car park anymore. Can I use theirs?

    Also Johnersh mentioned the issue with awaiting parking permit. Is that relevant in my case?

    Thanks and excuse all those questions. I am really trying to understand all this.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Aug 18, 1:22 PM
    • 62,736 Posts
    • 75,656 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would like to know whether it is relevant to mention in my WS about the poor signage? The problem is I dont have any photos apart from the ones that UKPC sent as a response to my SAR. They dont manage the car park anymore. Can I use theirs?
    Yes, certainly.

    Also Johnersh mentioned the issue with awaiting parking permit. Is that relevant in my case?
    Yes, because your WS is your story, and that's part of it.

    Your WS is accompanied by evidence and other transcripts of similar court cases so read the ones hosted by the Parking Prankster online, like Pace v Noor, Link v Parkinson and Jopson v Homeguard.

    I mean read the transcripts now and understand how they were won.

    Then read Link v Blaney and see why Blaney (who used a 'lay rep'...) lost.
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 16th Aug 18, 12:20 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Thanks Coupon-mad. That is very helpful. I enjoyed reading them and understand it much better now. Pace v Lengyel explained very clearly about the signage.

    Yes, certainly.
    Do you mean I can use theirs?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Aug 18, 12:57 AM
    • 62,736 Posts
    • 75,656 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes you can use their own photos if they work in your favour/are blurred or tiny writing, which UKPC photos usually are.
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 19th Aug 18, 11:23 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    My WS so far. Not sure about transcripts from other case. What to use.
    Please give your opinion.

    In the County Court
    Claim No.
    Between
    ......
    And
    .....


    WITNESS STATEMENT



    I .... am defendant in this Case.

    2. The facts stated in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my knowledge they are true to the the best of my information and belief. I am unrepresented consumer who has never attended the County Court before; please excuse my inexperience.

    3. I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed or any amount at all and this is my witness statement in support of my defence as already filed.

    4. I admit that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, however deny that I was the driver or the keeper at the time of the alleged contraventions.

    5. The claimant has provided no evidence of who was driving.

    6. The claimant cannot presume that the Registered Keeper was the driver.

    7. Barrister and parking law expert Henry Greenslade was the !!!8216;Parking on Private Land Appeals!!!8217; (!!!8220;POPLA!!!8221 Lead Adjudicator from 2012 - 2015. This is an independent appeals service offered by the British Parking Association (!!!8220;BPA!!!8221. MR Greenslade!!!8217;s opinion in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 confirms that !!!8220;there is no reasonable presumption in law that a keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.!!!8221; (Exhibit A)

    8. I am unable to identify the driver for the dates of incidents.

    9. There is no such statue requiring the registered keeper to identify the driver of a parking charge to a private parking firm. The Road Traffic Act 1988 s172 oblige the identification of drivers only in strictly limited circumstances, where a criminal offence has been committed. Those provisions do not apply to this matter. (Exhibit B)

    10. Claimant!!!8217;s Particulars of Claim states breach of the terms of parking, which Defendant denies, displayed on the signage throughout the site. However the Claimant!!!8217;s signs are not clear or visible because of the height they are placed at. The wording is small and confusing, it does not explain clearly what the terms are and is impossible for any driver to see when entering the car park. (Exhibit C)

    11. As comparison to the Claimant!!!8217;s signs I bring the Court!!!8217;s attention to the Beavis case where the terms and penalty charge was present in huge letters in the largest font on the signage and with high contrast black on yellow, and was therefore found to be transparent and obvious to the motorist. (Exhibit D)

    13. UKPC existed to enforce parking against non-residents and at all material times I was a resident at the location in question.

    13. The Claimant has not provided any proof of authorisation from the landowner to !!!8220;enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land!!!8221; (POFA 2012 Schedule 4) or to apply rules to residents and/or their visitors.

    14. In the Particulars of Claim the Claimant failed to comply with Practice Direction in CPR 16.4 which requires them to provide the statement of details of any loss and/or damage suffered.

    15. I deny any sum being owed to the Claimant. These are unfair charges that Claimant is trying to recover from the Driver or Defendant. What damage or loss could the car possibly cause by being parked in the car park.

    16. I invite the court to dismiss this claim in its entirety.



    Statement of Truth


    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.



    Signature
    Date
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 19th Aug 18, 11:44 PM
    • 9,741 Posts
    • 10,095 Thanks
    KeithP
    There is nothing in there about permits, despite earlier discussion with Johnersh and Coupon-mad. You don't even mention the word 'permit'.

    On 4th August you told us:
    The signage on the gate says: 'permit holders only'.
    Yet you make no mention of the fact that a forbidding sign cannot form the basis of a contract.
    .
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 19th Aug 18, 11:50 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Thank you.
    It just shows how much I understand it all...
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 20th Aug 18, 1:29 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Amended...

    In the County Court
    Claim No.
    Between
    ......
    And
    .....


    WITNESS STATEMENT



    I .... am defendant in this Case.

    2. The facts stated in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my knowledge they are true to the the best of my information and belief. I am unrepresented consumer who has never attended the County Court before; please excuse my inexperience.

    3. I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed or any amount at all and this is my witness statement in support of my defence as already filed.

    4. I admit that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, however deny that I was the driver or the keeper at the time of the alleged contraventions.

    5. The claimant has provided no evidence of who was driving.

    6. The claimant cannot presume that the Registered Keeper was the driver.

    7. Barrister and parking law expert Henry Greenslade was the !!!8216;Parking on Private Land Appeals!!!8217; (!!!8220;POPLA!!!8221 Lead Adjudicator from 2012 - 2015. This is an independent appeals service offered by the British Parking Association (!!!8220;BPA!!!8221. MR Greenslade!!!8217;s opinion in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 confirms that !!!8220;there is no reasonable presumption in law that a keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.!!!8221; (Exhibit A)

    8. I am unable to identify the driver for the dates of incidents.

    9. There is no such statue requiring the registered keeper to identify the driver of a parking charge to a private parking firm. The Road Traffic Act 1988 s172 oblige the identification of drivers only in strictly limited circumstances, where a criminal offence has been committed. Those provisions do not apply to this matter. (Exhibit B)

    10. UKPC existed to enforce parking against non-residents and at all material times I was a resident at the location in question.

    11. I had no allocated parking space when I moved into the property in August 2016 however I was promised one and eventually got a parking permit.

    12. I signed the tenancy agreement on the understanding that I would get a permit within 2 weeks.

    13. The Claimant has not provided any proof of authorisation from the landowner to !!!8220;enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land!!!8221; (POFA 2012 Schedule 4) or to apply rules to residents and/or their visitors.
    As said in the judgement from Pace v Lengyel case. (Exhibit C)

    14. The Defendant denies breaching any parking terms displayed on the signage throughout the site as stated in Claimant!!!8217;s Particulars of Claim.

    15. The sign on the entrance is forbidding therefore it does not form any basis of contract (Exhibit D) as stated in the Deputy District Judge Ellington!!!8217;s judgment in UKPC v Masterson case. (Exhibit E).

    16. The Claimant!!!8217;s signs are not clear or visible, because of the height they are placed at. The wording is small and confusing, it does not explain clearly what the terms are and is impossible for any driver to see when entering the car park. (Exhibit F)
    In Pace v Lengyel case the Judge explains how important the clarity of the signs is. (Exhibit G)

    17. As comparison to the Claimant!!!8217;s signs I bring the Court!!!8217;s attention to the Beavis case where the terms and penalty charge was present in huge letters in the largest font on the signage and with high contrast black on yellow, and was therefore found to be transparent and obvious to the motorist. (Exhibit H)

    18. In the Particulars of Claim the Claimant failed to comply with Practice Direction in CPR 16.4 which requires them to provide the statement of details of any loss and/or damage suffered.

    19. I deny any sum being owed to the Claimant. These are unfair charges that Claimant is trying to recover from the Driver or Defendant. What damage or loss could the car possibly cause by being parked in the car park.

    20. I invite the court to dismiss this claim in its entirety.



    Statement of Truth


    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.



    Signature
    Date
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 20th Aug 18, 11:52 AM
    • 9,741 Posts
    • 10,095 Thanks
    KeithP
    statue = statute
    .
    • Lunek
    • By Lunek 20th Aug 18, 11:57 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Lunek
    Sorry I don!!!8217;t get it
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Aug 18, 12:55 PM
    • 19,691 Posts
    • 31,162 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Sorry I don!!!8217;t get it
    Originally posted by Lunek
    9. There is no such statue requiring the registered keeper to identify the driver of a parking charge to a private parking firm. The Road Traffic Act 1988 s172 oblige the identification of drivers only in strictly limited circumstances, where a criminal offence has been committed. Those provisions do not apply to this matter. (Exhibit B)
    Statue = a carved or cast figure of a person or animal, especially one that is life-size or larger.

    Statute = a written law passed by a legislative body.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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