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Main site > Forums > Essential Money > House Buying, Renting & Selling > Boundary dispute with neighbour
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      spu98amj
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    • By spu98amj 27th Apr 18, 1:06 PM
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      What's this?

    spu98amj
    Boundary dispute with neighbour
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    • 27th Apr 18, 1:06 PM
    Boundary dispute with neighbour 27th Apr 18 at 1:06 PM
    Hello
    I am having an issue with a neighbour who is claiming my fence is in his garden. I need help with what if can do to stop him moving it as he has threatened to do soon. Then hi is going to bill me for the pleasure!

    The wooden fence was replaced 18 months ago with a new fence, and since the start of April the neighbour now wants us to move it into our garden by 12 inches.
    The fence in question has stood in the same place for around 20 years, we have photos of my wife in front of the fence aged around 14 when she was living in the house. The neighbour has owned the house for 10 years and the fence was in the same position when he purchased the house.

    My wife’s parents have both passed away and for nearly 5 years we have lived in the property that she grew up in. The house was initially purchased in 1995 by her parents. Sometime soon after 1995 the wooden fence was erected into the same place that our new fence stands. I have photos showing the positon against the wall of the old fence and new, you can count the bricks from the edge of the door to the fence is the same.
    I am wondering what I can do to stop my neighbour moving my fence to a position along the party wall. Which is 12 inches into our small garden, but the gate post in the other corner stays the same.
    I would like to find out as much info regarding an adverse possession claim of the small strip of land in question. I like to think the 3 main statements are with me,
    I have no knowledge of why the fence is in that position,
    I assumed the land is ours as it has been in our side of the fence for over 12 years.
    It has been locked away behind a locked gated and fenced garden and no one else has had access to the land.

    I would like to get an idea of what is needed, do I need to get a statement signed by a solicitor?
    Do I need a surveyor to measure up my current garden before anything gets moved?

    Or is there any other ways around this to save time and money?

    Hope anyone out there can help

    Thanks

    Andy

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      ScorpiondeRooftrouser
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    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 29th Apr 18, 11:38 AM
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      What's this?

    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    “
    That is wrong. You see what you are buying when you go and look at the house itself. On the solicitors forms and contract it says you must look at the boundaries and if you are not satisfied say so before contracts are exchanged. My neighbour bought his house 2 years ago and was happy with the boundary. I bought mine 18 years ago.

    You are also wrong as on the land registry website it clearly states that their plans are a guide only. The scale does not allow a measurement of 8 inches to show on the plan.

    This is precisely why boundaries are difficult unless there are measurements stated in the deeds or plans.

    Most people accept what is on the ground, particularly if it is clear that the boundary feature has been there for a long time. In my case we had photographic proof that the boundary feature had been in place for 25 years.

    So I'm afraid you really don't know what you are talking about.
    Originally posted by loveka ”
    Just because he bought the house doesn't mean he accepted it. He bought the house and subsequently decided to try and enforce what he could see on the Land Registry.

    Taking that to court was his right. If you thought you would win, you could have gone to court. If you didn't want the hassle, you could have given up this strip that was so small that it wouldn't even show on the plans. Why did it matter to him ? Why did it matter to you so much?

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      loveka
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    • By loveka 29th Apr 18, 12:24 PM
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      What's this?

    loveka
    “
    Just because he bought the house doesn't mean he accepted it. He bought the house and subsequently decided to try and enforce what he could see on the Land Registry.

    Taking that to court was his right. If you thought you would win, you could have gone to court. If you didn't want the hassle, you could have given up this strip that was so small that it wouldn't even show on the plans. Why did it matter to him ? Why did it matter to you so much?
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser ”
    It says in the contract that you accept the boundaries. The land registry says the plan is a guide.

    I didn't want to go to court because boundary disputes notoriously irritate judges. My solicitor said we would win in court, but may not get costs, even though we were defending. We could have ended up paying 10k just to keep that strip.

    It mattered to me because I have a very narrow garden, and planted in that 8 inch strip, and the rest of the garden border, were 18 years worth of plants and shrubs, climbing roses etc.

    You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. I am writing this to prevent others believing your nonsense, not to argue with you.

    Sorry!

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    • By Badger50 29th Apr 18, 12:35 PM
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      What's this?

    Badger50
    “
    ... And finally Badger50 refers to a fencing covenant, which is often personal but caught up with restrictive ones, not binding successors in title. In my experience that is nit always true as it can be if the next buyer covenants to 'observe and perform' the covenants. I don't think that matters to OP but may impact in others
    Originally posted by Land Registry ”
    I am grateful for Land Registry's helpful comment on my post.

    Sorry!

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    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 29th Apr 18, 12:37 PM
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      What's this?

    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    “
    It says in the contract that you accept the boundaries. The land registry says the plan is a guide.

    I didn't want to go to court because boundary disputes notoriously irritate judges. My solicitor said we would win in court, but may not get costs, even though we were defending. We could have ended up paying 10k just to keep that strip.

    It mattered to me because I have a very narrow garden, and planted in that 8 inch strip, and the rest of the garden border, were 18 years worth of plants and shrubs, climbing roses etc.

    You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. I am writing this to prevent others believing your nonsense, not to argue with you.
    Originally posted by loveka ”
    That contract is between the buyer and the seller, not the buyer and anyone else on neighbouring land. A contract between your neighbour and the person who sold him his land does not preclude him taking action against you.

    Cases such as this come up regularly and sometimes people win, sometimes they lose. It's not as cut and dried as you appear to believe. if it were, you wouldn't have needed to be paying £10K for a solicitor or be at risk of not receiving costs.
    Last edited by ScorpiondeRooftrouser; 29-04-2018 at 12:41 PM.

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    • By Ray Singh-Blue 29th Apr 18, 3:15 PM
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      What's this?

    Ray Singh-Blue
    “
    You could always retaliate by threatening to force removal of his flue and/or downpipe.
    Originally posted by G_M ”
    That sounds really painful

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    • By RyansMum 30th Jul 18, 8:58 PM
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      What's this?

    RyansMum
    Boundary Dispute
    Hi, My neighbour purchased her house in November then moved her fence 1 metre into my garden and said I had to prove the land was not mine. I got a chartered survey to write a report - she said it was not enough proof. I then had a Topographical Survey completed - both said that she had encroached by 1 metre (from where she moved the fence back). The cost of these survey is now at £2000 - she is still saying that it is not enough evidence. She has no evidence apart from her title deed.

    We have had a meeting with her without resolution. She will not spend any of her money to resolve this - she will not have her own survey. What is my next move. I am concerned about the mounting cost to me and not her. Any help is welcome. Thanks

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    • By Davesnave 30th Jul 18, 10:41 PM
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      What's this?

    Davesnave
    “
    Hi, My neighbour purchased her house in November then moved her fence 1 metre into my garden and said I had to prove the land was not mine. I got a chartered survey to write a report - she said it was not enough proof. I then had a Topographical Survey completed - both said that she had encroached by 1 metre (from where she moved the fence back). The cost of these survey is now at £2000 - she is still saying that it is not enough evidence. She has no evidence apart from her title deed.

    We have had a meeting with her without resolution. She will not spend any of her money to resolve this - she will not have her own survey. What is my next move. I am concerned about the mounting cost to me and not her. Any help is welcome. Thanks
    Originally posted by RyansMum ”

    Why not start your own thread, since only those who have seen this one will likely see your post?
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....

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    • By moneyistooshorttomention 31st Jul 18, 7:18 AM
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      What's this?

    moneyistooshorttomention
    “
    Why not start your own thread, since only those who have seen this one will likely see your post?
    Originally posted by Davesnave ”
    Agreed - re starting own thread.

    Plus I'd be interested to know why you didn't just take down her fence - as it was trespassing - rather than start arguing the toss with her.
    ****************

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    • By Davesnave 31st Jul 18, 10:26 AM
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      What's this?

    Davesnave
    “
    Agreed - re starting own thread.

    Plus I'd be interested to know why you didn't just take down her fence - as it was trespassing - rather than start arguing the toss with her.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention ”
    So why write a question here after I tried to steer the poster away from this thread?


    For the benefit of others, this thread is not where the current discussion is.


    The poster who resurrected it has very sensibly re-posted, as suggested.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....

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    • By spu98amj 10th Aug 18, 3:49 PM
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      What's this?

    spu98amj
    Hello again,


    Thanks for all the response regarding my and other issues like this.


    I have had another confrontation from my neighbours again today. They are now threatening a court case about the boundary. So i guess we will now have to wait for them to send us their paperwork from whatever solicitor they have got.


    But i would like to know for sure is, if by buying a property and signing the contract to buy a property are you signing off on the positoin of your boundarys?



    If this is true all i will need to do is proove the fence I have is in the same position as the old fence and the old fence was in position at the time he purchased the house.


    They still dont believe the photos are true, i have one with my wife aged 13ish and she is now in her 30s as well as photos of the old and new fence position. Surely they dont have a leg to stand on. Do they?


    I am also sure they have no proof the fence i have recenly put up (2 years ago) is further in their garden than the old fence.


    It all stems from a badly installed boiler anyway! Someone kinked the old cast iron downpipe further onto my wall to make room for the new boiler. This meant there was no room for a higher fence to be installed, apart from thier side of the part wall!


    Sorry last question, could any corgi registered person confirm that a boiler flue has to be further than 300mm from the party wall?


    Thanks again


    Hope someone can help!

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    • By Annie35 10th Aug 18, 6:35 PM
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      What's this?

    Annie35
    No this is spu 's thread!

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    • By Davesnave 10th Aug 18, 8:57 PM
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      What's this?

    Davesnave
    “
    No this is spu 's thread!
    Originally posted by Annie35 ”
    You're 100% right.


    Sorry, someone hi-jacked this thread earlier. I've deleted my post and slapped myself for not checking more carefully.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....

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    • By DCFC79 10th Aug 18, 10:46 PM
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      What's this?

    DCFC79
    “
    You're 100% right.


    Sorry, someone hi-jacked this thread earlier. I've deleted my post and slapped myself for not checking more carefully.
    Originally posted by Davesnave ”
    Its ok you are forgiven.

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    • By Davesnave 11th Aug 18, 12:35 AM
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      What's this?

    Davesnave
    “
    Hello again,


    Thanks for all the response regarding my and other issues like this.

    I have had another confrontation from my neighbours again today. They are now threatening a court case about the boundary. So i guess we will now have to wait for them to send us their paperwork from whatever solicitor they have got. So they have accepted they can't just take the fence down, which is progress, of a sort.
    But i would like to know for sure is, if by buying a property and signing the contract to buy a property are you signing off on the positoin of your boundarys? No, because as the Land Registry rep explained, neither where the boundary is shown on the plan, or where it is in reality, always defines exactly where it is.
    That's something that ultimately neighbours must agree on between themselves, or have the matter decided by a court.

    If this is true all i will need to do is proove the fence I have is in the same position as the old fence and the old fence was in position at the time he purchased the house. This would be your stance if you wanted to claim adverse possession. In that case, you'd be saying you agree the fence has been in the wrong place for so long, you've gained legal possession of the extra land it encloses.

    They still dont believe the photos are true, i have one with my wife aged 13ish and she is now in her 30s as well as photos of the old and new fence position. Surely they dont have a leg to stand on. Do they? Possibly not, but it would probably need someone like a specialist surveyor to assess the weight of evidence shown in photographs. After all, if the neighbour is doubtful about the photos, could others not also question what they show? Are you going to employ a land surveyor?
    I am also sure they have no proof the fence i have recenly put up (2 years ago) is further in their garden than the old fence. Fine, but if that's what's in their heads, you have the same problem as you do with the photos.
    It all stems from a badly installed boiler anyway! Someone kinked the old cast iron downpipe further onto my wall to make room for the new boiler. This meant there was no room for a higher fence to be installed, apart from thier side of the part wall! Again, you seem to be suggesting this badly installed boiler and the solution agreed at the time has given you rights acquired over time. i.e. adverse possession.

    Sorry last question, could any corgi registered person confirm that a boiler flue has to be further than 300mm from the party wall? What time are we talking about exactly? Regulations change over time. Even the names of organisations change. There are no Corgi registered fitters now; they're referred to as Gas Safe Engineers
    Thanks again


    Hope someone can help!
    Originally posted by spu98amj ”

    As I see it, what the Land Registry Rep said is most relevant here:
    "The key is what do you both want and how far are you prepared to go to achieve it?"


    On the face of it, you are putting forward a strong case for adverse possession, so the other thing the LR Rep said is particularly pertinent:


    "Experience shows that a dispute is rarely any good to either neighbour on a very wide range of levels."

    While this dispute rumbles on, neither party will be in a good place emotionally, or to sell their property, should the need arise. You both have to consider carefully and objectively what the small piece of land is really worth.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....

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    • By HampshireH 11th Aug 18, 8:48 AM
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      What's this?

    HampshireH
    Just out of interest will you also be asking then to adjust their downpipe at the same time so it doesnt cross your land?

    Sorry!

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    • By loveka 11th Aug 18, 9:47 AM
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      What's this?

    loveka
    Yes, what the Land Registry person said.

    On paper yes, you look at the boundary on the plan and then on the ground. It says you agree they match on the form.

    However, this doesn't stop legal action taking place. I'm not sure why this happens, as 'buyer beware' is quoted on every aspect of house buying.

    You case is very similar to mine. We had sworn statements, photographs, everything. Our solicitor said we were 99% sure of winning in court.

    However, he said that sometimes judges in boundary disputes do not award costs. So I potentially could have won my land, but had to pay my own costs which may have been up to £30k.

    Now remember, your neighbour would be taking this risk too. It is a game of cat and mouse and it is not fair. But that is the way the law operates, because as said above, there is an assumption that you have to work this out between you BECAUSE the plans are not accurate.

    In the end we split the land (4 inches each) and my garden was destroyed. He actually took my plants and put them in his garden because they had been 'trespassing'!

    Anyhow, we have moved now. We had to declare the dispute and it was fine. We got the neighbour to sign a declaration that he was now happy with all the boundaries and there would be no further disputes.

    It was hell. With moving costs and all the surveyor and solicitor fees it has probably cost us around £20k.

    You could still go for adverse possession though. Have you posted on garden law? They are very helpful.

    Do you have legal cover on your home insurance? Check and if so give them a ring.
    Last edited by loveka; 11-08-2018 at 9:48 AM. Reason: Autocorrect

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    • By Ms Chocaholic 11th Aug 18, 10:47 AM
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      What's this?

    Ms Chocaholic
    Is it worth all the stress for 12 inches

    If it were me I'd say to the neighbour that if he moves the fence to a line agreed by you both (ie the 12 inch point) I'd do that. Life's too short.
    Thrifty Till 50 Then Spend Till The End

    You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time

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    • By spu98amj 13th Aug 18, 10:24 AM
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      What's this?

    spu98amj
    They have suggested they could move it for us but then bill us for the money!



    I have no problem with them paying someone i trust to move it and relay the patio/path.



    They will have full rights over the position of the downpipe once it is on their side. I wont allow it to be on my wall though.


    If they are set on using solicitors we will state why it was placed in that position. I cant understand what proof they have of where the fence should be. We have the photos of why the fence is where it is. I havent shown any surveyor them yet but I will try to find someone who could give adivce on the validity of them.



    I do get worried for my wife as they do keep comfronting her with some aggression. The owner (who has let his daughter live there) does not want to speak to me anymore after my insistance of seeing proof!


    I like to think any solicitor would advise them to get proof before progressing anything. I worry they will find someone to write a letter to us but I am unsure of what to do when / if they do anything.



    I am aware my home insurance does provide a legal helpline so I will use them if needed.

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      moneyistooshorttomention
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    • By moneyistooshorttomention 13th Aug 18, 12:46 PM
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      What's this?

    moneyistooshorttomention
    It's odd the way they pick on your wife (ie female) and not you (ie male). Hmmmm....

    She's got two choices:
    - Learn to change her attitude and be as "strong" etc as I'm guessing you are being with them
    OR
    - just literally walk away from them the second they glare or comment to her

    It's ingrained in some of us to "be polite" and listen to someone that wants to speak to us - and, if she's been brought up to be polite, then it's not an easy thing to do to "blank and walk" - but it does work.

    Probably the second option is the most realistic.
    ****************

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    • By spu98amj 20th Sep 18, 1:14 PM
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      What's this?

    spu98amj
    Well it finally happened!

    We received a letter from a solicitor, stating we have erected a new fence in a different location to the old fence.

    They also state Pursuant to Section 38(1) of the Law of Property act 1925, party walls would be divided in half. Given that the title plans for the properties show the boundary runs in a straight line through the party wall, the legal boundary separating the properties would line up with the middle of the party wall separating the dwellings.

    I gather they are assuming the fence is meant to line up with the party wall. But from the old unscaled title plan available for our and his property there is not much to go on from them.

    Or is there?

    They also claim my wife had confirmed we would move the fence in July! She said no such statement.

    They state as a result of the “move” of the fence their boiler flu is on our side of the fence. This was always the case as it was that flu that caused the fence to be positioned there in the first place!
    They are going to take it to court if we refuse to relocate the fence.

    I keep thinking about doing nothing as we have proof that the new fence is in the same position as the old one. With that proof and images of why it was positioned towards his property about 20 years ago. A change to the guttering down pipe to accommodate the old owners new boiler meant a wooden fence had to be positioned the other side of the downpipe as it enters the ground.

    Should I ignore the letter that was not signed for?
    Should I seek my own solicitor? Fight back with adverse possession?


    It’s all down to who is going to pay for the fence move if it gets moved at all. We will live with the fence in the position he wants but we don’t want to pay for it.

    Any advice on this would be greatly received.

    Thanks

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