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  • FIRST POST
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 23rd Apr 18, 8:00 PM
    • 68Posts
    • 18Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Land owner changed since PCN of 4 months ago
    • #1
    • 23rd Apr 18, 8:00 PM
    Land owner changed since PCN of 4 months ago 23rd Apr 18 at 8:00 PM
    Hi I was visiting and spending a lot of money in Poundstretcher Wymondham Norfolk and had no idea of any limits, just didnt see a sign (apparently it was for 90 mins) This is the only shop there and no other reason to use this car park. There is always only about 4 or 5 cars there as I go late at night just before they close

    I apparently went 15 mins over this, I had 2 trolleys to steer full of Christmas presents, electricals foods toys furnishings pet goods homewares etc, I travelled 15 miles for their closing down sale

    It was their last few days of trading. I had no idea of any parking charge until DRP sent me a £160 charge. The store has since been knocked down and a new LIDL built on the landI I suspect the land owner may be the same, but don't really know!

    I visited the shop about 4 times in December as everything was half price and I bought up big! All the staff knew me, they even help me load the car as I have lots of heavy bulky items. Theyre very friendly and would always help me in any way and we chat for ages! Had I known at the time or someone had warned me of time limits I'd have asked them for an exemption or something! I can't contact anyone there now as the store doesnt exist any more!


    Very unfair as I was a very genuine customer, my only fault it was dark and never saw the signs and bought so much I was in there over 90 mins

    DRP 's threat letter was barely readable, had to really struggle to see the operators name on top right carbon type tiny printing (who are Smart Parking) as the letter was virtually unreadable and the times in and out were printed so finely they couldnt be read either

    I still parked on private land I guess, but as Smart supposedly wrote to me at the same address DRP did and I never received it, I had no idea of what I had done until some 3 months later with the usual court threats etc!

    I have ignored DRP as advised in sticky notes but appealed online to Smart (as when you call to speak to an operater they cut you off every time instead of transferring you) so only way was to view the ticket online - still not very clear as so dark at night!

    Finally a reply by letter to correct address 3 weeks later. They are upholding the charge as I went 15 mins over and have taken all my points into consideration, but still want the money. Although they have referred back to the initial offer of reduced fine if paid in so many days. No apology for never informing me by letter(s) that I'd even received a PCN in time to give me time to pay a reduced fine, just the Debt collectors letter. as I said before. I guess them reducing it was them acknowledging that I was right they had ommitted sending one?

    I probably will pay as they say they'll escalate it again to debt if I don't. They do refer to POPLA but say if my case fails I'll then be over the date allowed for the unknown discount and have to pay full amount..

    Interestingly they dont quote any figures to pay, just an address or phone number to pay by, so I've no idea what this reduced fine is as they never send me an initial letter in the first place! There were one or two spelling mistakes in their letter too, but guess that's just me being pedantic!

    Do I appeal to POPLA and risk becoming one of the unlucky cases who lose? And the worst thing that annoys me is I can't visit the store as it has been knocked down since December so no one there anymore to help or advise! I am gutted that the new land owners forced them to close by buying the land off whoever owned it for years, I got so many supplies in there and was my favourite and much used place to shop for so many things.

    I drove over there the other week to look for signs, but as it was all being dug out and the car park was now a heap of mud, I have no idea if there were signs or not! I could see however a small white camera quite high up in middle of car park!

    The shop didnt want to close down they were forced out a while ago because LIDL bought the land and they all lost their jobs! This was in the local press about 2 years ago when I lived in the area! The papers said LIDL had taken over the land. So they had fair warning. I guess although it is now being dug up, that the signs I never knew were there from 4 months ago were legal at the time!

    I have had so many unfair PCNS over the last few years and have always managed to get out of them by writing direct or the store has offered to sort it out for me. Can I just say that ALDI are wonderful, they just take the letter and plug it into their internal system and you hear no more. LIDL on the other hand are not so nice, they forced my No 1 discount store out of business!

    Advice from the experts on here. Do I now pay SMART even though DRP have hopefully backed off? and what is the amount I'm supposed to pay anyway?, I'm guessing £60 as that seems pretty standard. But how unprofessional to ask me to pay in a few days and nowhere in their paperwork does it state an amount!

    Sorry I'm so long winded. I didn't intend to be, but I'm close to giving up on the battle. No one wants the shock of what they assume is a £160 fine and threats of court action out of the blue!

    Do I write to Poundstretcher HQ as theres no longer any in this area. I'm sure its all too late and Smart say this is my last chance to deal with them! Cowboys for sure, but still legal, I blame the land owners.

    In leaving,this page, do the parking company or the landowners get all this money they accrue off innocent shoppers? Be interested to know Thanks all in advance, this is a wonderful resource and without it I'd have probably panicked even more. I'm sure its saved lots of people money who would have just paid up! Kind regards Julia
    Last edited by Silversurreal; 23-04-2018 at 8:10 PM. Reason: spelling
Page 4
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th May 18, 2:44 PM
    • 9,298 Posts
    • 9,577 Thanks
    KeithP
    Remove your vehicle registration number from that.
    .
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 2:45 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    BTW I have no idea why the threads include 8211!! in text it is because I copied and pasted maybe?
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 2:48 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Thanks Keith P
    Remove your vehicle registration number from that.



    Done!
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 2:53 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Any critique welcomed! ???
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 18, 3:41 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I have to get it in today, right or not.
    No you don't.

    If you read other POPLA appeal threads I would hope you'd have seen POPLA codes last 32 days, in fact. You have 4 more days if today is day 28.

    Your introduction only mentioned points #3 and #4, not #1 or #2?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 3:54 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    #1 #2 relating to which section? Let me know and I'll add them.

    I know officially the issuers always tell you 28 days and I've read on here that it's actually 32/33 even poss 34 days from those like yourself in the know! But like many am trying to comply with the general belief. Cant risk not at least showing the courtesy of the advertised time! Or is that yet another lie by Smart and co? Can you show me any article where POPLA state 32 days? I'm not being pedantic, just trying to do things correctly! Cheers
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 18, 3:58 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    POPLA does not state you have 32 days, anywhere.

    But you can believe us.

    People like me who have done hundreds, KNOW FOR A FACT the Codes go offline on day 33, so you always have 32 days, definitely, 100%. They are not lying, POPLA simply allow a few days extra in case people want to use the post.

    Your introduction only mentioned points #3 and #4, not #1 or #2?
    Please just look at it again, look at it...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th May 18, 3:58 PM
    • 9,298 Posts
    • 9,577 Thanks
    KeithP
    It's up to you Silversurreal.

    Send it today if you like, or wait a few more days and hone it to perfection.

    Your appeal. Your choice. You decide.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 18, 4:00 PM
    • 61,745 Posts
    • 74,656 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You need more time, you are missing one of the template points about the appellant not being shown to be the individual liable.

    I have only skim-read, but you also have mad stuff like this:
    The keeper is being penalised for over staying by 15 min
    Eeeeeek!!

    That pretty much tells POPLA the keeper was the person who overstayed! NONONO.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 4:18 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Eeeeeek!!

    That pretty much tells POPLA the keeper was the person who overstayed! NONONO


    OK CM noted, will remove that detail lol at your

    Now to try to find my missing points! :-)
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 4:57 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Can someone point me in the right direction please? Where does it go? and do I just copy the sections in somewhere??? help!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 18, 5:01 PM
    • 61,745 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    You are not doing it today. You are still working on it. Today is NOT the deadline.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 5:41 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Ok CM I accept I may not complete today but want to fine tune it, if I have missed key points!

    Is the point you're talking about the appellant not shown to be the driver THE INSERTED TEXT? see below

    and should it go here? I dont understand what points # 1 to # 4 are? I am appealing on 4 points, I am a novice at this! Is there a longer schedule that I should be inserting, believe me I have read numerous appeals etc in the newbies



    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 - no keeper liability
    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

    No “notice to keeper received” therefore not compliant with POFA 2012.
    As none of the mandatory information set out by Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA has been made available to me as Registered Keeper the conditions set out by paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Therefore there can be no keeper liability and as a result I request that this charge be considered non valid.
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 5:46 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    If you are referring to these 2 key points, I can add them, but where?


    1) Keeper Liability not established - The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012
    2) Smart Parking has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge.
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 5:49 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    It's a real minefield and Mr of Mrs Average wouldn't stand a chance without advice, so this MSE board is invaluable BUT it's not easy to do the first time. I guess when I've done a few, I'll be an old pro too, but at the moment I'm just another "lost Newbie" Thanks to you all, I hope to at least get my appeal approved today and live tomorrow! Cheers Julia
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 18, 6:23 PM
    • 61,745 Posts
    • 74,656 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The start of your appeal says this:

    POPLA Verification Code - xxxxxxxx

    PCN Ref: xxxxxxx - SMART PARKING

    Location - Former site of Poundstretcher UK Gateway 11 Wymondham NR18 0WF

    PCN recorded via ANPR dated 04/12/17 Keeper not informed until demand letter from Debt Recovery Plus dated 22/03/18 (Escalated to debt recovery with no prior knowledge of charge)


    As the registered keeper of xxxxxxxxxx

    3. The minimum grace period was not allowed by the operator

    4. No evidence of Landowner Authority
    Soooo...what's missing, glaringly obviously missing at the start there?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 7:07 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN! Sorry where were points 1 and 2 indeed? I copied it all, very strange to miss a bit out of the middle! anyway draft to follow!
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 7:18 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Draft

    Images not copied for some reason but they are included in the Pdf file in the same format,

    I'm not sure about the threats to MP and local media, what do you think! The more I read what I've wrote the more angry I get about this situation and others like it. It really has to be stamped out!




    POPLA Verification Code – xxxxxx

    PCN Ref - xxxxxxx - SMART PARKING

    Location - Former site of Poundstretcher UK Gateway 11 Wymondham NR18 0WF

    PCN recorded via ANPR dated 04/12/17 Keeper not informed until demand letter from Debt Recovery Plus dated 22/03/18 (Escalated to debt recovery with no prior knowledge of charge)


    As the registered keeper of xxxxx I wish to refute these charges on the following grounds


    1. The Notice to Keeper does not comply with sub-paragraph 9 (2&5) POFA 2012

    2. Signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice and was not prominent enough to form any contract with a driver

    3. The minimum grace period was not allowed by the operator

    4. No evidence of Landowner Authority



    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 - no keeper liability
    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

    No “notice to keeper received” therefore not compliant with POFA 2012.
    As none of the mandatory information set out by Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA has been made available to me as Registered Keeper the conditions set out by paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Therefore there can be no keeper liability and as a result I request that this charge be considered non valid.




    The first correspondence to the keeper (confirmed correct DVLA address) was in the form of an unpaid demand of £160 received from DEBT RECOVERY PLUS (post dated 22/03/18) The keeper was informed that the alleged infringement of a 15 minute over stay in a 90 minute free stay car park; occurred on 4/12/17 (108 days prior to first contact) and from my understanding the NTK was required to reach me by well before this duration


    It was claimed a PCN had been issued and ignored by DRP, but on contacting SMART PARKING about no formal “notice to keeper” having ever being received as stipulated in POFA 2012. They wrote to keeper with no reply of whether they had sent or not sent a PCN . At this moment it is doubtful they actually issued a PCN between the alleged date of 04/12/17 and DRPs demand letter on 22/03/18 and that they seem to have just escalated the charge to Debt recovery. Giving them the benefit of the doubt that did omit to notify sender with a PCN there no apology or explanation in their response. They offered to extend the "discounted period". They quoted " please note we have reinstated the discount period until the 02/05/18" but there was no mention or inkling of the amount they were putting forward or asking for (originally or now)! DRP's initial demand was for £160 with their debt recovery charges added as standard, but no mention ever of original charge as SMART PARKING never contacted keeper. So the so called discounted charge amount remains undisclosed and unknown.

    2. Signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice and was not prominent enough to form any contract with a driver

    There are no signs from Smart Parking displayed at the entrance to the car park. The sign was not in place on this occasion, (maybe due to store closing down and the supposed future development by new owner of this plot of the Gateway 11) The Poundstretcher store no longer stands and the car park is currently being redeveoped for a location of a new Lidl store. If a sign had been on site at this time, it wouldn't have been seen at on a dark December evening in this iscolated location..
    Further more there is/was only one store situated on this car park. The store is located off a busy dual carriageway, with no other shops close by and one mile to the town centre. Hence there is no other reason to use this car park other than for customers of Poundstretcher/Pets at Home.
    I would also bring into question the authenticity and clarity of the photographs taken of the vehicle – most notably the time stamps which even magnified are difficult to reasonably determine. By close examination of the photographs, the details (time, location, direction) are added as a black overlay box on-top of the photos in the upper right hand corner. The stated over stay is 15 minutes if the details are correct! I reiterate the times on both images are not clear to the human eye.

    ANPR Images taken directly from SMART PARKING online. Illegible times of entrance and exit!








    Entrance Exit

    Unreadable signage breaches Appendix B of the BPA Code of Practice which states that terms on entrance signs must be clearly readable without a driver having to turn away from the road ahead. A Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home so prominently that the party 'must' have known of it and agreed terms beforehand.


    3. The minimum grace period was not allowed by the operator




    In their correspondence of 17/04/18 SMART PARKING state "We wish to confirm there is sufficient time allowed for drivers to return to their vehicle and exit the car park, however the maximum free time is calculated from entrance to exit and must be adhered to at all times" Their time limit is 90 minutes total, no allowance for getting to and from vehicle to store, finding a parking space, carrying shopping to car or loading trolley packing car or negotiating traffic and pedestrians. So therefore their argument that their 90 minute rule allows for any such "grace time" is absurd!

    BPA’s Code of Practice (13.2) states that:

    “You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.”
    BPA’s Code of Practice (13.4) states that:

    “You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action.If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.”

    BPA’s Code of Practice (18.5) states that:

    “If a driver is parking with your permission, they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the contract with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.”


    The BPA Code of Practice (13.4) clearly states that the Grace Period to leave the car park should be a minimum of 10 minutes. It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the minimum of 10 minutes grace period stipulated in .13.4 is also a “reasonable grace period” to apply to 13.1 and 13.2 of the BPA’s Code of Practice.

    4. No evidence of Landowner Authority

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unreduced copy of the contract with the landowner.

    The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where.

    It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).


    statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party in the agreement


    Proof of purchase from aforementioned store at this date/time
    The date can clearly be read on image # 1. The second image #2 (full till receipt) is shown just to demonstrate how genuine shoppers are being penalised by these unscrupulous car park operaters. I am adding my name to a petition to take to the movement in government currently ongoing, as this should not be allowed to continue. I’ll also be writing to my local MP and possibly writing an article for local press. This has to be stamped out, in this financial climate, the UK wants to encourage comsumer spending, not prevent shoppers driving out to remote locations and receiving penalties for their efforts to keep the economy going. The way the future is looking. Everyone will purchase online and more and more busnesses will be forced to close – as in the case of the store involved on this occasion!











    The contravention was during Poundstretchers final weeks of their closing down sale leading up to final closure at Christmas. The business at this location has now ceased. It is unknown who actually owns the land. Lidl has since taken over the plot from Poundstretcher. It is unclear if change of landowner has occurred. Search for current landowner online has been fruitless.
    I ask in all sincerity that you cancel this charge of £160 – assumably. (Amount unknown because the PCN has never issued any amount to keeper initially or subsequentially) Many thanks and look forward to your thoughts and hopefully an agreeable resolution!

    Sincerely xxxxxx
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 18, 8:11 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Keeper not informed until demand letter from Debt Recovery Plus dated 22/03/18
    Just checking, did you send your details to Steve Clark at the BPA for his dossier on Smart Parking going straight to debt letters, that we are pressing people to add to?

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74269821#post74269821

    If not, email him and ask that your case joins the dossier mentioned on MSE:

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    In your appeal, in #4 you have 'unreduced' but it should read 'unredacted'.


    Shouldn't this be numbered #5? Typos here as well:

    Proof of purchase from aforementioned store at this date/time

    The date can clearly be read on image # 1. The second image #2 (full till receipt) is shown just to demonstrate how genuine shoppers are being penalised by these unscrupulous car park operators operaters. Whilst the driver's identity will not be divulged, as registered keeper I have complained to Steve Clark at the BPA to add to his dossier about Smart Parking routinely going straight to debt collector stage with no NTK posted, and I am adding my name to a petition...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 8:28 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Lol as I was copying that bit from you I noticed that but spellchecker refused to accept unredacted, (still does) so had to take a wild guess on what it was, oh dear. I'll make necessary adjustments. I am correcting lots of little things, grammar etc and adding extra oomph as we speak. Anything can be improved! Eventually I'm just going to have to stop adding to and correcting it and just send it in asap please I wanna jump over that hurdle!!!!!! ;-)
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