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  • FIRST POST
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 23rd Apr 18, 8:00 PM
    • 68Posts
    • 18Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Land owner changed since PCN of 4 months ago
    • #1
    • 23rd Apr 18, 8:00 PM
    Land owner changed since PCN of 4 months ago 23rd Apr 18 at 8:00 PM
    Hi I was visiting and spending a lot of money in Poundstretcher Wymondham Norfolk and had no idea of any limits, just didnt see a sign (apparently it was for 90 mins) This is the only shop there and no other reason to use this car park. There is always only about 4 or 5 cars there as I go late at night just before they close

    I apparently went 15 mins over this, I had 2 trolleys to steer full of Christmas presents, electricals foods toys furnishings pet goods homewares etc, I travelled 15 miles for their closing down sale

    It was their last few days of trading. I had no idea of any parking charge until DRP sent me a 160 charge. The store has since been knocked down and a new LIDL built on the landI I suspect the land owner may be the same, but don't really know!

    I visited the shop about 4 times in December as everything was half price and I bought up big! All the staff knew me, they even help me load the car as I have lots of heavy bulky items. Theyre very friendly and would always help me in any way and we chat for ages! Had I known at the time or someone had warned me of time limits I'd have asked them for an exemption or something! I can't contact anyone there now as the store doesnt exist any more!


    Very unfair as I was a very genuine customer, my only fault it was dark and never saw the signs and bought so much I was in there over 90 mins

    DRP 's threat letter was barely readable, had to really struggle to see the operators name on top right carbon type tiny printing (who are Smart Parking) as the letter was virtually unreadable and the times in and out were printed so finely they couldnt be read either

    I still parked on private land I guess, but as Smart supposedly wrote to me at the same address DRP did and I never received it, I had no idea of what I had done until some 3 months later with the usual court threats etc!

    I have ignored DRP as advised in sticky notes but appealed online to Smart (as when you call to speak to an operater they cut you off every time instead of transferring you) so only way was to view the ticket online - still not very clear as so dark at night!

    Finally a reply by letter to correct address 3 weeks later. They are upholding the charge as I went 15 mins over and have taken all my points into consideration, but still want the money. Although they have referred back to the initial offer of reduced fine if paid in so many days. No apology for never informing me by letter(s) that I'd even received a PCN in time to give me time to pay a reduced fine, just the Debt collectors letter. as I said before. I guess them reducing it was them acknowledging that I was right they had ommitted sending one?

    I probably will pay as they say they'll escalate it again to debt if I don't. They do refer to POPLA but say if my case fails I'll then be over the date allowed for the unknown discount and have to pay full amount..

    Interestingly they dont quote any figures to pay, just an address or phone number to pay by, so I've no idea what this reduced fine is as they never send me an initial letter in the first place! There were one or two spelling mistakes in their letter too, but guess that's just me being pedantic!

    Do I appeal to POPLA and risk becoming one of the unlucky cases who lose? And the worst thing that annoys me is I can't visit the store as it has been knocked down since December so no one there anymore to help or advise! I am gutted that the new land owners forced them to close by buying the land off whoever owned it for years, I got so many supplies in there and was my favourite and much used place to shop for so many things.

    I drove over there the other week to look for signs, but as it was all being dug out and the car park was now a heap of mud, I have no idea if there were signs or not! I could see however a small white camera quite high up in middle of car park!

    The shop didnt want to close down they were forced out a while ago because LIDL bought the land and they all lost their jobs! This was in the local press about 2 years ago when I lived in the area! The papers said LIDL had taken over the land. So they had fair warning. I guess although it is now being dug up, that the signs I never knew were there from 4 months ago were legal at the time!

    I have had so many unfair PCNS over the last few years and have always managed to get out of them by writing direct or the store has offered to sort it out for me. Can I just say that ALDI are wonderful, they just take the letter and plug it into their internal system and you hear no more. LIDL on the other hand are not so nice, they forced my No 1 discount store out of business!

    Advice from the experts on here. Do I now pay SMART even though DRP have hopefully backed off? and what is the amount I'm supposed to pay anyway?, I'm guessing 60 as that seems pretty standard. But how unprofessional to ask me to pay in a few days and nowhere in their paperwork does it state an amount!

    Sorry I'm so long winded. I didn't intend to be, but I'm close to giving up on the battle. No one wants the shock of what they assume is a 160 fine and threats of court action out of the blue!

    Do I write to Poundstretcher HQ as theres no longer any in this area. I'm sure its all too late and Smart say this is my last chance to deal with them! Cowboys for sure, but still legal, I blame the land owners.

    In leaving,this page, do the parking company or the landowners get all this money they accrue off innocent shoppers? Be interested to know Thanks all in advance, this is a wonderful resource and without it I'd have probably panicked even more. I'm sure its saved lots of people money who would have just paid up! Kind regards Julia
    Last edited by Silversurreal; 23-04-2018 at 8:10 PM. Reason: spelling
Page 3
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th May 18, 10:04 PM
    • 9,197 Posts
    • 9,371 Thanks
    KeithP
    Will this revelation make any difference to my POPLA appeal ?
    Unlikely.

    Doesn't that article just say that in 2013 there was no planning permission to sell particular goods?

    Do you know, or can you confirm, whether Poundstretcher ever did get planning permission to sell those goods?

    Don't spend too much time on that as I cannot see that it has any relevance to your parking issue.
    Last edited by KeithP; 12-05-2018 at 10:08 PM.
    .
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 13th May 18, 2:53 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Okay duly noted, But it seems choosing what to write to POPLA seems to vary from a genuine from the heart human approach, without saying me I or myself explaining that I was a genuine customer (without saying I) to a huge plagiarism of multiple paragraphs without personalisation from previous templates. Just hitting them with evidence that I've been on this site basically! Seems these looooooong appeals are better and more effective than trying to defend myself as a genuine shopper but instead pointing out Smarts failures and their mistakes in the charging process , ie poor signage, straight to DWP with no warning and failure to state an amount in grace period just threatening that this was my last chance and next time I'd be straight to DRP without any more rights to appeal! I know Smart are little fish, but this sill causes stress to motorists like me never the less! Julia
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th May 18, 3:11 PM
    • 9,197 Posts
    • 9,371 Thanks
    KeithP
    You being a 'genuine shopper' is irrelevant.
    Surely you have gathered that by now.
    You parked. The PPC alleges that you didn't obey the rules. The PPC does not care how much you spent. The PPC want money from you. Full stop.

    Are you going to put together a PoPLA appeal or not?
    Your choice.

    Some days ago I asked:
    Please can you confirm the date of the appeal rejection letter from Smart?

    I suspect that by now you are too late for a PoPLA appeal, but please confirm that date.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th May 18, 3:42 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,344 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    a huge plagiarism of multiple paragraphs without personalisation from previous templates.
    That's what we do here, have done for years, and usually win at POPLA. Tried & tested.

    It's not plagiarism because the templates are in the NEWBIES thread on offer to all to use.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 13th May 18, 4:26 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    The letter was dated 17th April so 28 days is tomorrow and I'm struggling! It all seems soooo complicated!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th May 18, 4:31 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,344 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    What, copying four template appeal points all grouped in one post?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 4:55 AM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    PDF help please
    Okay well I've made life hard on myself again. I've worked all my points into an appeal, it's now 5am and I'm exhausted, I'm hopng it's not too badly written! I have to get it in today, right or not. Not much time for amendments.

    Have just spent a couple of hours downloading Adobe acrobat reader onto my 2 devices, but cannot get it to convert from word to PDF, so I'm at a loss to know what to do next! Please reply I have to send it asap! Thanks
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 14th May 18, 9:15 AM
    • 3,207 Posts
    • 2,120 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Adobe Acrobat is a pdf reader and will not actually convert Word to pdf - unless you bought the paid for version. What you need is a pdf writer, which, when installed, shows as a printer among (all) your other printers when selecting "Print" in Word. In fact, depending upon the version of Word, you might even already have it. Go to "Print" and select the box marked "select printer" or similar and see what you have their. Otherwise there are some on-line converters available.
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 9:40 AM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Pdf
    Oh nooooo, going to have to attempt to send it in words at this rate it has to go today

    I see many PDF Converters online but no doubt they all download a load of dodgy software which I don't want! This is becoming such a nightmare r the hours I've put in, and the stress I've been through would have been worth paying 60. But was told Smarr are easy to beat unfortunately the actual task has taken me far more than 6 hours work is there anyone out there that will help me convert to PDF because I think I have the appeal in place easy to beat unfortunately the actual task has taken the far more than 6 hours work or even 20 hours at this rate plus all the perusing and reading I've done please help I'm not being ungrateful thanks in advance
    • nigelbb
    • By nigelbb 14th May 18, 10:05 AM
    • 2,025 Posts
    • 2,818 Thanks
    nigelbb
    Oh nooooo, going to have to attempt to send it in words at this rate it has to go today

    I see many PDF Converters online but no doubt they all download a load of dodgy software which I don't want! This is becoming such a nightmare r the hours I've put in, and the stress I've been through would have been worth paying 60. But was told Smarr are easy to beat unfortunately the actual task has taken me far more than 6 hours work is there anyone out there that will help me convert to PDF because I think I have the appeal in place easy to beat unfortunately the actual task has taken the far more than 6 hours work or even 20 hours at this rate plus all the perusing and reading I've done please help I'm not being ungrateful thanks in advance
    Originally posted by Silversurreal
    Use the free online Word to PDF converter at https://smallpdf.com/word-to-pdf
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th May 18, 11:48 AM
    • 3,426 Posts
    • 4,247 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Or if you have a recent version of word you can save it directly to PDF

    Or you cna use LibreOffice and save it to PDF directly from there. Also free.

    By denying them this money, you p[ut them closer to going out of business. Its like vaccinatins -= its the herd youre worrying about, not yourself.
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 1:45 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    I'll try to download LibraOffice but very wary of downloading free software as usually includes free malware or at least hidden software, has anyone else got this?
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 14th May 18, 1:48 PM
    • 3,207 Posts
    • 2,120 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    I have downloaded LibreOffice, installed it and used it without issue. What version of Windows & Word are you using. As stated above "modern" versions allow printing/saving direct to .pdf.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th May 18, 1:50 PM
    • 9,197 Posts
    • 9,371 Thanks
    KeithP
    Yes, it is very good. I use it. It is free. I have no need to pay for word processing software.

    Even promoted here:
    .
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 2:13 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    APPEAL for perusal
    ALL DONE, I think! I am no good at this sort of thing, I panic, so sorry all:-)

    Is there a special page for posting appeal for perusal or do I just post it here? Julia
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th May 18, 2:26 PM
    • 9,197 Posts
    • 9,371 Thanks
    KeithP
    Post it here.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th May 18, 2:27 PM
    • 3,426 Posts
    • 4,247 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You post it here, so all discussion is in one place

    LibreOffice is free Open Source Software, NOT shareware or similar
    It is a port of a long running piece of software called star office, and does essentially everytying that Office does, just for free.
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 2:28 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    I've enclosed their really bad ANPR photos and till receipt for what it's worth, do I include anything else? correspondence from SMART? or is that taken as read? Thanks in advance Julia
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 2:30 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    LibraOffice Thanks it's great!
    nosferatu1001



    Thanks it's a brilliant program, so glad you pointed me in the right direction x
    • Silversurreal
    • By Silversurreal 14th May 18, 2:42 PM
    • 68 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Silversurreal
    Draft
    Heres my first draft, I still have to insert images. I have the really bad entrance and exit ANPR's and the till receipt for what it's worth, is there anything else I can add, ie SMARTS correspondence maybe? Thanks, I'm sorry to procrastinate so much but I'm not really very good at these things! Julia


    POPLA Verification Code - xxxxxxxx

    PCN Ref !!!8211; xxxxxxx - SMART PARKING

    Location - Former site of Poundstretcher UK Gateway 11 Wymondham NR18 0WF

    PCN recorded via ANPR dated 04/12/17 Keeper not informed until demand letter from Debt Recovery Plus dated 22/03/18 (Escalated to debt recovery with no prior knowledge of charge)


    As the registered keeper of xxxxxxxxxx

    3. The minimum grace period was not allowed by the operator

    4. No evidence of Landowner Authority


    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 - no keeper liability

    No !!!8220;notice to keeper received!!!8221; therefore not compliant with POFA 2012.
    As none of the mandatory information set out by Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA has been made available to me as Registered Keeper the conditions set out by paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Therefore there can be no keeper liability and as a result I request that this charge be considered non valid.


    The first correspondence to the keeper (confirmed correct DVLA address) was in the form of an unpaid demand of 160 received from DEBT RECOVERY PLUS (post dated 22/03/18) The keeper was informed that the alleged infringement of a 15 minute over stay in a 90 minute free stay car park; occurred on 4/12/17 (108 days prior to first contact) and from my understanding the NTK was required to reach me by well before this duration

    The keeper is being penalised for over staying by 15 min shopping/parking area where there is/was only one store. It is situated off a busy dual carriageway, with no other shops close by and one mile to the town centre. Hence there is no other reason to use this car park other than customers of Poundstretcher/Pets at Home


    It was claimed a PCN had been issued , but on contacting SMART PARKING about no formal !!!8220;notice to keeper!!!8221; having ever being received as stipulated in POFA 2012. They wrote to keeper with no reply of whether they had sent or not sent a PCN . At this moment it is doubtful they actually issued a PCN between the alleged date of 04/12/17 and DRPs demand letter on 22/03/18 and that they seem to have just escalated the charge to Debt recovery. Giving them the benefit of the doubt that did omit to notify sender with a PCN there no apology or explanation in their response. They offered to extend the "discounted period". They quoted " please note we have reinstated the discount period until the 02/05/18" but there was no mention or inkling of the amount they were putting forward or asking for (originally or now)! DRP's initial demand was for 160 with their debt recovery charges added as standard, but no mention ever of original charge as SMART PARKING never contacted keeper. So the so called discounted charge amount remains undisclosed and unknown.


    2. Signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice and was not prominent enough to form any contract with a driver

    There are no signs from Smart Parking displayed at the entrance to the car park. The sign was not in place on this occasion, even if it had been in place it wouldn't have been seen at on a December evening in this location.
    I would also bring into question the authenticity and clarity of the photographs taken of the vehicle !!!8211; most notably the time stamps which even magnified are difficult to reasonably determine. By close examination of the photographs, the details (time, location, direction) are added as a black overlay box on-top of the photos in the upper right hand corner. The stated over stay is 15 minutes if the details are correct!

    Unreadable signage breaches Appendix B of the BPA Code of Practice which states that terms on entrance signs must be clearly readable without a driver having to turn away from the road ahead. A Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home so prominently that the party 'must' have known of it and agreed terms beforehand.



    3. The minimum grace period was not allowed by the operator

    In their correspondence of 17/04/18 SMART PARKING state "We wish to confirm there is sufficient time allowed for drivers to return to their vehicle and exit the car park, however the maximum free time is calculated from entrance to exit and must be adhered to at all times" Their time limit is 90 minutes total, no allowance for getting to and from vehicle to store, finding a parking space, carrying shopping to car or loading trolley packing car or negotiating traffic and pedestrians. So therefore their argument that their 90 minute rule allows for any such "grace time" is absurd!

    BPA!!!8217;s Code of Practice (13.2) states that:

    !!!8220;You should allow the driver a reasonable !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.!!!8221;
    BPA!!!8217;s Code of Practice (13.4) states that:

    !!!8220;You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action.If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.!!!8221;

    BPA!!!8217;s Code of Practice (18.5) states that:

    !!!8220;If a driver is parking with your permission, they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the contract with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.!!!8221;


    The BPA Code of Practice (13.4) clearly states that the Grace Period to leave the car park should be a minimum of 10 minutes. It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the minimum of 10 minutes grace period stipulated in .13.4 is also a !!!8220;reasonable grace period!!!8221; to apply to 13.1 and 13.2 of the BPA!!!8217;s Code of Practice.



    4. No evidence of Landowner Authority

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unreduced copy of the contract with the landowner.

    The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where.

    It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).


    statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party in the agreement



    The contravention was during Poundstretchers final weeks of their closing down sale leading up to final closure at Christmas. The business at this location has now ceased. It is unknown who actually owns the land. Lidl has since taken over the plot from Poundstretcher. It is unclear if change of landowner has occurred. Search for current landowner online has been fruitless.
    I ask in all sincerity that you cancel this charge of 160 (discount unknown because the PCN has never issued to keeper) Many thanks and look forward to your thoughts

    Sincerely xxxxxxxx
    Last edited by Silversurreal; 14-05-2018 at 2:46 PM. Reason: spelling
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