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  • FIRST POST
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 19th Apr 18, 11:33 PM
    • 80Posts
    • 25Thanks
    Ibcus
    HX Car Park Management PCN wrong reg typed into machine
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 18, 11:33 PM
    HX Car Park Management PCN wrong reg typed into machine 19th Apr 18 at 11:33 PM
    My partner received this letter a few days ago from HX Car Park Management.
    hxxp://i63.tinypic.com/zwkpbq.jpg

    The driver paid for a parking ticket but put the reg in as 06, as they have done in older machines over the years.

    This is the ticket they paid for (they keeps them all, a work thing)
    http://i64.tinypic.com/2911b2a.jpg

    The registered keeper phoned them the other day, while I was at work, telling them the driver had a valid ticket for the time they was on the car park, they wasn't interested as the driver hadn't validated it and they seemed quite happy to see her in court.

    I drove to the car park last night to have a look at it.

    This is the main thing you see, it's very large and between two pay points.



    The only mention of inputing a full and vaild reg number is on the pay machine in small text and also on signs on walls quite a distance away.

    payment post


    Not the best picture, but there you go





    In the vast experience that I know is out there on this forum, how likely is it that she/we are going to have to jump through hoops to bring this to logical outcome?
    Last edited by Ibcus; 11-07-2018 at 1:38 AM.
Page 5
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Aug 18, 5:53 PM
    • 9,252 Posts
    • 9,465 Thanks
    KeithP
    I know nothing about the new Pre-Action Protocol but I've seen it mentioned on here lots of times.
    Originally posted by Ibcus
    The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims is referred to in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    The fourth link in that post is the one you want.

    However, from their faq the reverse of 21 is true.
    I.e. if you are an individual, then they, as a company, must comply with that protocol introduced in October last year.
    .
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 4th Aug 18, 8:20 PM
    • 1,177 Posts
    • 2,233 Thanks
    Johnersh
    I wouldn't lose too much sleep. Gladstones routinely fail to comply with the protocol.

    Respond in a letter that you can adduce to court later:

    The type of points id make are:

    1. No loss (you bought + paid for a ticket)
    2. Indistinct/invisible/conflicting parking terms
    3. Substantial compliance with reg input
    4. Emphasis on P&D if wholly an ANPR exercise that should be clearer and there'd be no obligation to display.
    5. Pursuing a claim contrary to BPA/IPC guidance on the very point (incomplete reg)
    6. Applying additional charges that they are not entitled to levy.

    On the basis that Gladstones have refused to supply a copy of the parking terms it seems clear that you are prejudiced from preparing a full and detailed response to what is a breach of contract claim.

    Full details must be provided if, as is indicated in their correspondence, they intend to bring court action.

    That further strengthens the standard part of the defence where it is argued the claimant's case is thin and poorly pleaded.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 14th Aug 18, 12:53 AM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    Just browsing hx's web site and found this:
    https://www.hx-pcn.com/bpa-statement-ethical-car-park-management/


    To me that seems to imply they use BPA and POPLA, they use IPC. To this end that seems a little unethical



    I came across a few links while looking for an old version of their FAQ.
    https://www.hx-pcn.com/downloads/ amused me
    "You do not have to be legally trained to represent the company in a small claims court."



    lots of link here:
    https://www.hx-pcn.com/links
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 15th Aug 18, 12:41 AM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    Today I receivd the reply to the SAR I sent to HX by email, it contains 7 pdf's and 4 images, image of car coming in, image of car going out and 2 images of the reg plate.


    One the pdf's is ticket details, it has all the times/dates/etc a satus log and Notes part.
    The notes part has abbreviations RD(06), EB, Auto and EB.

    I would like to note in all the files sent the only abbreviation explained is send to DR (ready to be sent to debt recovery company).


    The first note dated 6-4-18 says EB then '06'.
    Parking date 4-4-18 reg entered on ticket 06

    What does EB mean, is this a coincidence?


    I am sending this email


    Hi Rachel,

    I thank you for your reply to the right of access request.
    I would like you to clarify the meaning of the abbreviations used in you response.
    I would like to note that, ominously, the only one explained is ‘send to DR’ in the file ‘Full Response to Right of Access Request.pdf ‘ with a meaning of ‘the PCN is ready to be sent to out debt recovery company’.

    While I will agree most are self explanatory I would argue the ones under Notes are not.
    What is RD?
    What is EB?
    What is DPA?

    I would also appreciate that you reply to the me directly on this email address.

    Kind regards,
    If anyone is looking for the email address of the data protection officer it's dpo@hx-pcn.com
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Aug 18, 12:48 AM
    • 9,252 Posts
    • 9,465 Thanks
    KeithP
    I thank you for your reply to the right of access request.
    Should be:
    I thank you for your reply to the subject access request.
    .
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 15th Aug 18, 12:50 AM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    I sent it as they sent it


    From: "Rachel" <dpo@hx-pcn.com>
    To: ********
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Subject Access Request

    Good Afternoon,
    Please find attached our response, in full, to your right of access request under GDPR.
    Kind regards

    Rachel
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Aug 18, 1:17 AM
    • 9,252 Posts
    • 9,465 Thanks
    KeithP
    .
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 15th Aug 18, 1:31 AM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    • Pjr1525
    • By Pjr1525 15th Aug 18, 1:20 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    Pjr1525
    Hi , ibcus the photo you required is on my thread, posts 105 and 108. Thanks
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 15th Aug 18, 4:41 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    Thanks Pjr, I've downloaded a copy of it.


    I've had a reply from Rachel.


    Good Morning,
    In regards to the abbreviations, 'RD' and 'EB' are the initials of the staff members at HX Car Park Management who added the notes to the PCN.


    'DPA' is the abbreviation for 'Data Protection Approved' - this is what is used to denote that the caller answered all the data protection/security questions, and that they were the name we hold on the PCN, prior to discussing the details with them.


    Kind regards
    I'm now wondering why EB added the note '06' on 06-04-2018 (NTK was sent on 09-04-2018)
    '06' is what was entered on the ticket

    If I was of a suspicious nature I would think they have tried to hide this comment in the pdf by overlapping the attachements box




    Am I reading too much into this?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Aug 18, 12:26 AM
    • 61,591 Posts
    • 74,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Not sure, hard to tell.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 11th Sep 18, 12:02 AM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    Going off a pretty much parallel case on here it seems very likely that this will go to court, I'm just waiting for it to pop through the letter box.

    I've searched and googled for a template letter to send for requesting such data and can't find one, maybe I'm using the wrong search technique.


    I'm not great(rubbish) at writing letters at the best of times.


    Is this worth sending to the DPO of HX?


    Good Morning,


    I am writing in regard to [PCN NUMBER]

    As it seems very likely that [PARKING COMPANY] will issue unfounded court proceedings against the registered keeper I am hereby requesting all the raw data from the pay and display ticket machine at the location in [CAR PARK LOCATION] for the whole day of the alleged incident, that day being [DAY OF PARKING].

    Ideally I would like this as a spreadsheet (CSV/Excel etc) with the following columns:
    Unique identifier for machine
    Location of machine
    Date&Time ticket printed
    Text entered
    Amount paid

    I also request the date [PARKING COMPANY] took over management for this car park, who the contract is with and when this particular pay and display machine was installed on this site.

    Please advise at your earliest convince if you will comply with my above requests, not complying may be deemed as unreasonable behaviour if this incident does go to court.

    Kind regards

    [NAME]
    Should I bother sending it?
    Last edited by Ibcus; 12-09-2018 at 12:25 AM.
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 14th Sep 18, 12:32 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    I have received this response to the request:


    Good Morning,
    In regards to the below, as what you are requesting contains personal data relating to other individuals, due to data protection and GDPR regulations, this will not be provided.
    Regards


    Is a VRN personal data?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Sep 18, 1:49 PM
    • 9,252 Posts
    • 9,465 Thanks
    KeithP
    Is a VRN personal data?
    Originally posted by Ibcus
    Stick that question into google and your answer is immediately available.
    .
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 14th Sep 18, 2:10 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    It seems a grey area but most agree it is personal data.


    I've asked for the data for 3 days now with all VRN data verified by ANPR to a macthing vehicle to be redacted and all other data left as is
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 14th Sep 18, 2:59 PM
    • 3,278 Posts
    • 5,504 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Just one final letter to them advising them they can redact the other personal data and send yours. Tell them they have 7 days or it is off to the Information Commissioner for a ruling.

    If they want to play games, talk to the umpire too.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Ibcus
    • By Ibcus 14th Sep 18, 3:50 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Ibcus
    I sent them this:


    Good Afternoon,


    If that is the case I request all the data from the pay and display ticket machine at the location in [ LOCAT ION] for the day before the alleged incident [DATE], the day of the alleged incident [DATE] and the day after the alleged incident [DATE] with all VRN data verified by ANPR to a matching vehicle redacted and with all other data left as is. This data should only show incorrectly entered VRN details that will not relate to other individuals so will not breach data protection or GDPR regulations.

    I would like this data as requested below.


    Ideally I would like this as a spreadsheet (CSV/Excel etc) with the following columns:


    Unique identifier for machine
    Location of machine
    Date&Time ticket printed
    Text entered
    Amount paid


    You also did not respond to my other requests, I would like you to do so now please.
    I also request the date HX Car Park Management took over management for this car park, who the contract is with and when this particular pay and display machine was installed on this site.
    Regards

    • luverlyjubbly
    • By luverlyjubbly 14th Sep 18, 3:53 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    luverlyjubbly
    No reason why they can't react - it's just easier to fob people off.

    I have been in touch with the ico some time ago on a different matter and they said hx weren't on their radar. I suspect more and more people bringing these problems to the ico's attention will change that!
    Please read the stickies, your question and situation will have been covered before. Let's keep the board clear for the most experienced members to help genuine new and interesting situations.
    • fil cad
    • By fil cad 15th Sep 18, 9:07 PM
    • 778 Posts
    • 636 Thanks
    fil cad
    This site has been a hot topic in the local paper, many other victims are being scammed there, maybe someone will spend time there and warn future cash cows about this and upset their gravy train.
    PPCs say its carpark management, BPA say its raising standards..... we all know its just about raking in the revenue.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Sep 18, 11:05 PM
    • 61,591 Posts
    • 74,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I sent them this:
    Originally posted by Ibcus
    When the Data Protection Officer rejects that, send him/her a Rectification Notice to rectify the inaccurate data held by the keypad and interrogate the ANPR data instead to see which is the 'accurate data' (a fact that was in their gift all along, and should have been rectified without fuss). This has been written recently in other cases.

    See the other threads about a 'RN', there are several now, with examples.

    If after that, the DPO refuses to rectify the data that they KNOW is 'inaccurate' then report them to the ICO for failing to deal properly and proportionately with a SAR, then failing to rectify (when asked to) an error that they KNEW about, that did not affect the fact they knew (confirmed in the appeal and by their own ANPR data) that the driver was authorised to park.

    It is not a lawful excuse to refuse to 'rectify inaccurate data' because they want it to stay 'inaccurate' so they can penalise a consumer!!

    Parking charges cannot be raised just to penalise human error - tell the ICO in the eventual complaint, that the ParkingEye v Beavis case confirmed that charges cannot be recoverable if they do not have a 'legitimate interest' to save them from the penalty rule. So inaccurate data (even if emanating from the driver's human error) cannot be used against them and MUST be rectified when spotted.

    A simple data adjustment to 'overwrite' the inaccurate (but innocuous) error held by the keypad/machine data stream, with what the PPC knows is the correct VRN (after all they've used it to get the DVLA data!) is surely a DPO's duty, once the error came to light.

    And, the refusal to rectify KNOWN TO BE inaccurate data, when specifically asked to do so by the data subject, is unlawful under the GDPR. As is using ANPR excessively or disproportionately, which is certainly the case when a PPC tries to use the ANPR to 'prove a driver wrong' on something as innocuous as human error.

    And talking of humans, tell the ICO that this sort of 'we know the data is inaccurate but we want it to stay that way, so the driver has to pay us £100 as a 'fine'' shameful and unjustified episode is repeated day in day out by all ANPR using PPCs (whether BPA or IPC firms, they all do it). The fact it is so common, proves there is no 'human intervention' and that ANPR data is being cross-checked with keypad data but only by an automated system, to churn out PCNs.

    Tell the ICO that, clearly no 'human checks' of these automated decisions are actually being done, because if they had been, the GDPR requirements (on keeping accurate data used in a proportionate way) have been breached, by whoever claims they carry out those checks.

    An ANPR using PPC is damned if a human checks the data, and damned if they don't - and so they should be! This conduct in blaming consumers for errors that are easy to rectify and where the trader already knows the correct data all along, cannot possibly have a 'legitimate interest' (Beavis case definition) and neither is it compatible with the GDPR.

    It's like a retailer blaming a dyslexic person for a spelling mistake - clearly excessive.

    And show the ICO this from HX's website and ask them to comment on the fact HX are saying they *can* punish people who make more than an arbitrary '2 digit' VRN error, and ask how that fits with the consumer's right to rectification (of the entire VRN, if that's what has happened):

    Allowing for Human Error
    In the BPA's statement, mention is made to the possibility of a parking charge notice (PCN) being issued as a result of human error, saying we do recognise that errors can occur and they can be upsetting for the motorist.
    In many cases, parking tickets are cancelled by the operator when they are given additional information, said the BPA.

    We can confirm that, with HX Car Park Management, this is absolutely the case. Not only that, but in every instance of a PCN being issued, we will actively assess the possibility of human error. To this end, if the number plate entered by the motorist displays up to two characters difference from the number plate of the vehicle in question, we will automatically dismiss the case as human error and recall the relevant parking charge.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-09-2018 at 11:18 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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