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  • FIRST POST
    • satchef1
    • By satchef1 17th Apr 18, 4:26 PM
    • 106Posts
    • 66Thanks
    satchef1
    Parking fine for charging an electric car
    • #1
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:26 PM
    Parking fine for charging an electric car 17th Apr 18 at 4:26 PM
    Hi,

    Last week I stopped off at Novotel Wolverhampton to use their Polar Plus Ultracharger. It's a rapid charger that will fill my car up in about 20 minutes. I pay a subscription to Polar for access to their network of chargers. Today I received a "fine" from Parking Eye for not paying the parking charges. I was in the car park for 20 minutes.

    This is the sign that is displayed in the car park:



    I was about to pay the fine until I read this properly. There is no mention of charges for people who aren't hotel guests. I wasn't a hotel guest, but I did have a right to be there (under the Polar Plus network membership). So do these charges apply? Is this an angle worth fighting?

    Thanks
Page 1
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 17th Apr 18, 4:31 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
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    twhitehousescat
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:31 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:31 PM
    tell polar plus to contact the hotel and ask them to contact PE to get the charge dropped , you had PERMISSION to be on the land , and I suspect (correct me if I am wrong) the area you charged your car was NOT a designated parking area , it was an area set aside for charging vehicles
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • satchef1
    • By satchef1 17th Apr 18, 4:43 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    satchef1
    • #3
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:43 PM
    • #3
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:43 PM
    That's not a bad idea, thanks.

    Though generally, Polar do expect you to pay the local parking charges. But this is the first time I've known charges to be applied to use an Ultracharger; it's fairly normal (and reasonable) with the slow chargers as they can take hours.

    To be honest, I didn't see the signs, hence why I was prepared to cough up. But now that I have seen them, I can see that the wording isn't explicit.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 18, 4:47 PM
    • 18,119 Posts
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    Redx
    • #4
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:47 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:47 PM
    they havent given this pcn for using the charger, you have incorrectly assumed that

    they issued the pcn because their cameras took an ANPR pgoto when the car entered and exited, and their computers received no registration at the desk

    so computer he say no entry so pcn issued for being "on site" with no authorisation

    we have seen this in MSA,s where the site was covered by the same cameras and people were chargingf cars in the bays at the "petrol station" or similar - ie:- they do not differentiate between parking and filling up

    ANPR cameras monitor time "on site" , not "parking"
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 17th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    • 7,342 Posts
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    beamerguy
    • #5
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    As said above .....

    "your car was NOT a designated parking area , it was an area set aside for charging vehicles"

    The sign does make mention of this
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 17th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    • 10,451 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #6
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    For a quick resolve, why not ring the hotel and ask. Polar/Chargemaster install the chargers but there is not a 100% standard contract with the landowner/hotel. Some landowners charge, others do not and looking at ZapMap, you can see that some hotels have special ways to access the chargers (report to reception to get them switched on for example) whereas others are free for all.

    Best bet is to ring the hotel to see what their system is and please post up their response (to help other ev drivers)
    • satchef1
    • By satchef1 17th Apr 18, 5:07 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    satchef1
    • #7
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:07 PM
    • #7
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:07 PM
    This is the hotel's reply:

    "Good Evening,



    I can confirm that the terms for use of the car park are clearly stated via various car parking signs displayed throughout the car park,



    I have attached a photo of one of the signs for your records, I can also confirm that there are 2 of these signs located next to the polar charging station,



    Kind Regards"
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 17th Apr 18, 5:10 PM
    • 10,451 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #8
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:10 PM
    • #8
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:10 PM
    Aarrgh!!!!!!!!!

    So what are they saying??? Free parking for EVs when charging or all vehicles, including EVs using the charger must pay the 4.00 and register at reception.

    That reply doesn't say.
    • satchef1
    • By satchef1 17th Apr 18, 5:12 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    satchef1
    • #9
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:12 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:12 PM
    they havent given this pcn for using the charger, you have incorrectly assumed that

    they issued the pcn because their cameras took an ANPR pgoto when the car entered and exited, and their computers received no registration at the desk

    so computer he say no entry so pcn issued for being "on site" with no authorisation

    we have seen this in MSA,s where the site was covered by the same cameras and people were chargingf cars in the bays at the "petrol station" or similar - ie:- they do not differentiate between parking and filling up

    ANPR cameras monitor time "on site" , not "parking"
    Originally posted by Redx
    Maybe my post is badly worded? Or maybe you're making incorrect assumptions? I'm well aware that I was fined for being in the car park for 20 minutes without paying, rather than because I was using the charger.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 18, 5:12 PM
    • 18,119 Posts
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    Redx
    nor does it contain pictures of the actual signage near the charger bays

    perhaps they have different terms on them ? like registering at reception ?

    your post is badly worded as I am making statements of facts, not assumptions

    the facts are thus

    NOBODY has been "fined" (your word , not mine)

    a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE has been issued for being in a private hotel car park without permission or registering at reception , even though the vehicle was not "parked" in the true sense of the word (but could have just as easily been in a parking bay instead of the EV bay)

    the PCN has been issued for being on a private site without verification at the hotel reception and the hotel are saying there are signs near the charging bays, but we do not know what they say, only what the sign posted above says

    I am saying this has happened previously in an MSA monitored by PE who were taking the keeper to court for "parking" an EV in a charging bay , so its not the first time nor will it be the last
    Last edited by Redx; 17-04-2018 at 5:17 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • satchef1
    • By satchef1 17th Apr 18, 5:13 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    satchef1
    Aarrgh!!!!!!!!!

    So what are they saying??? Free parking for EVs when charging or all vehicles, including EVs using the charger must pay the 4.00 and register at reception.

    That reply doesn't say.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    Sorry. The mentioned photo is the one from the original post. It states the charges for hotel guests, which, as far as I am concerned, I was not.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 18, 5:19 PM
    • 18,119 Posts
    • 22,906 Thanks
    Redx
    is that a car park sign or an EV charging bay sign ? or are they all the same sign ?
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 17th Apr 18, 5:19 PM
    • 4,123 Posts
    • 5,852 Thanks
    Half_way
    Dear hotel, thank you for your reply, however at the time my vehicle was not parked, but making use of the charging station/re fuelling.
    I am sure that you perfectly understand that you are jointly liable for the actions of your agents, Parking eye, and will take immediate action to cancel this parking charge issued to a vehicle that was not parked, I refer you to the case listed here, 3JD08399 ParkingEye v Ms X. Altrincham 17/03/2014 http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 18, 5:24 PM
    • 18,119 Posts
    • 22,906 Thanks
    Redx
    previous thread on a similar case where PE issued an MCOL for a vehicle charging up in an EV bay

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5479925

    and CM researched it in this post

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=70852829&postcount=23

    the sign posted earlier has no terms and conditions listed for what an EV vehicle driver must do when charging a vehicle in an EV bay (unless the signs at those bays are different ?)
    Last edited by Redx; 17-04-2018 at 5:36 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 17th Apr 18, 5:26 PM
    • 10,451 Posts
    • 9,734 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    You may have guessed that I am an EV driver too, so your post was of personal interest to me. I am not sure that the reception or even duty manager knows of the particular arrangements of the contract that Novotel have with Chargemaster and if any subsidies were involved when the Ultracharger was installed.

    I took the liberty of ringing Chargemaster to ask in general and also specifically with regard to this charger what the arrangements are and how are motorists to know if they are liable for the parking charge.

    The support person didn't know in this case, but promised to pass this on to the right team to find out and if there was a concession to EV drivers, to inform the hotel to get it sorted.

    I would ring Chargemaster tomorrow and ask if there has been any determination of the position and whether a concession should be in place according to the contract Chargemaster/Polar had with the hotel when the Ultracharger was installed.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Apr 18, 5:29 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,074 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    There is no mention of charges for people who aren't hotel guests.
    I agree. And you were not in a parking bay.

    Was the PCN received by day 15? Does it have the POFA 29 days para on the back?

    Well done Guys Dad for proactive help.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 17th Apr 18, 5:37 PM
    • 9,209 Posts
    • 8,979 Thanks
    The Deep
    In my opinion, the sign is ambiguous. It makes no mention of people not staying at the hotel hsving to pay for parking. ergo, Contra Preferentum should apply.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • satchef1
    • By satchef1 17th Apr 18, 5:41 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    satchef1
    is that a car park sign or an EV charging bay sign ? or are they all the same sign ?
    Originally posted by Redx
    According to the hotel, that is the sign that is displayed in the car park. Presumably (as their email suggests) it is also the sign that is displayed next to the EV charging bay. I haven't gone back to check myself as it's a ~2 hour round trip.

    previous thread on a similar case where PE issued an MCOL for a vehicle charging up in an EV bay

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5479925

    and CM researched it in this post

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=70852829&postcount=23

    the sign posted earlier has no terms and conditions listed for what an EV vehicle driver must do when charging a vehicle in an EV bay (unless the signs at those bays are different ?)
    Originally posted by Redx
    Thank you. I'll have a read.

    You may have guessed that I am an EV driver too, so your post was of personal interest to me. I am not sure that the reception or even duty manager knows of the particular arrangements of the contract that Novotel have with Chargemaster and if any subsidies were involved when the Ultracharger was installed.

    I took the liberty of ringing Chargemaster to ask in general and also specifically with regard to this charger what the arrangements are and how are motorists to know if they are liable for the parking charge.

    The support person didn't know in this case, but promised to pass this on to the right team to find out and if there was a concession to EV drivers, to inform the hotel to get it sorted.

    I would ring Chargemaster tomorrow and ask if there has been any determination of the position and whether a concession should be in place according to the contract Chargemaster/Polar had with the hotel when the Ultracharger was installed.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    I've just had an email from a CS agent saying she's just spoken to my friend. I guess that bit of her email makes sense now.

    I agree. And you were not in a parking bay.

    Was the PCN received by day 15? Does it have the POFA 29 days para on the back?

    Well done Guys Dad for proactive help.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Yeah, huge thank you. You've managed to give me some clarity on where I stand with this one.

    My initial thoughts on posting were "is it even worth fighting?". I now know that the answer to that question is "Yes".
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 17th Apr 18, 5:42 PM
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    Guys Dad
    I wouldn't complicate things by either saying the vehicle wasn't parked (it was if it was stopped and unless it was doing a Maypole dance with the charger cable, it was stopped) or saying it wasn't in a parking bay (which would contravene the t&c)

    We EV drivers are just as protective of our charging places/bays as disabled drivers are of theirs and I have recently learned a new vocabulary relating to EVs. (One of my favourite is when a petrol/diesel car is parked in an EV bay, it is referred to as being ICEd) So definitely having designated EV bays is a good thing!!

    And are you, c-m, nicking my favourite appeal point too????
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 17th Apr 18, 6:00 PM
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    • 5,852 Thanks
    Half_way
    Still chugging away in a good ole' petrol vehilce.
    However a vehicle stopped in an EV bay charging is not parked, but re-fuelling, once re-fueling has been completed it would be expected for a driver to move the vehicle and either continue on his/her journey, or to move it to a parking space/area.
    I could go to the local large Supermarket, fill up with fuel and then leave my vehicle in the petrol station at the pump while i walk across the ( usually vast) car park and enter the main part of the store, this would be unreasonable ( unless its a small filling station/shop combined)
    Likewise if an EV is sitting in a public EV bay long after charging has completed.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
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