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  • FIRST POST
    • Gaikokujin
    • By Gaikokujin 17th Apr 18, 2:39 PM
    • 7Posts
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    Gaikokujin
    (Late) PCN from UK Car Park Management & follow up debt collection letter - Continue to ignore?
    • #1
    • 17th Apr 18, 2:39 PM
    (Late) PCN from UK Car Park Management & follow up debt collection letter - Continue to ignore? 17th Apr 18 at 2:39 PM
    Hello all,

    First off apologies for the overly long post. Looking for some advice on an attempted parking charge levied against me by UK Car Park Management. I’ve read through the newbies advice and although I don’t think my case is that different from most others on here I still wanted to start a separate thread to gauge if it’s worthwhile responding to them or not.

    The area where the charge has been issued is a privately owned road behind some houses that used to provide site access for a building firm who own it and the land it connects to. About 25 years ago they built a small shopping precinct on part of their land and the road is now the main delivery access for those shops.

    For as long as anyone can remember there’s been an informal agreement that people whose houses backed on to the road could park there so long as it didn’t impact on deliveries. For whatever reason about 6 months ago the road itself (but none of the other land) was sold off to a 3rd party and the person who bought it is now trying to implement parking charges.

    On the evening of 1st January my car was stopped on the road for about 20 minutes while visiting one of the aforementioned houses. There was no windscreen ticket issued but obviously someone was on the lookout that night because a few weeks later an NTK letter arrived in the post, which had a couple of photographs taken by a handheld camera and a request to pay them a £100 charge (or £60 if I paid within 14 days).

    The photographs they've provided as evidence of an offence being committed are laughably poor quality: The first one doesn’t even have the flash on so all you can see is the rough outline of the back of the car and on the second one where they’ve switched the flash on all you can see is the number plate. Neither shows the whole car and there is no signage visible - or discernible features of any kind - to even show where it was parked when they were taken.

    On top of that, the NTK letter is dated 18 days after the incident and wasn’t received until 4 days after that. As there was no windscreen ticket am I right in thinking this should have been issued within 14 days and so as the registered keeper I cannot be held liable?

    I did draft up a response telling them this and making sure that there was no admission of who may have been driving. But given the fact their letter was issued too late, how flimsy the 'evidence' is and after reading the website below I decided it wasn’t even worth wasting my time doing that (specifically the second to last paragraph):

    parkingcowboys.co.uk/appeal-or-ignore/

    Having not heard anything since I had assumed they'd given up on it as well but at the weekend received another letter from a different firm (Debt Recovery Plus), to say they are now acting on behalf of UKCPM and I have 14 days to pay £160 or ‘further recovery action will be taken’.

    Being honest I’m still inclined to ignore it as I don’t want to give their claim any credibility by having any response taken as an appeal. Also my understanding of the situation is that people like DRP can’t do any more than continue to send annoying letters through the post and hope I eventually cave in/pay them. However in the interest of drawing a line under this once and for all wondering if it is worthwhile sending a response to both UKCPM & DRP stating that as the NTK letter was not issued in time any claim they have against me as the registered keeper is invalid?

    Thanks in advance for any response/opinions on this...
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Apr 18, 2:46 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 18, 2:46 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 18, 2:46 PM
    Don't even look at the Parking Cowboys website, IMHO there are issues with its advice.

    This should help:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5829959

    However in the interest of drawing a line under this once and for all wondering if it is worthwhile sending a response to both UKCPM & DRP stating that as the NTK letter was not issued in time any claim they have against me as the registered keeper is invalid?
    Not to DRP, but I would do that to UKCPM and tell them any further contact will be misuse of your data because they have exhausted the only permitted use by the DVLA, namely 'enquiring who was driving'. In a non-POFA case, that's the reason the data is released. No more and no less.

    Keep proof of posting, to look reasonable. No more replies unless you move address in which case keep them updated for 6 years to ensure you don't suffer from a secret CCJ scam happening in a couple of years time at your old address, that you'd know nothing about until too late.

    They will send more letters and might start a claim (Gladstones) but you will be in a good place for defence.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Gaikokujin
    • By Gaikokujin 17th Apr 18, 3:26 PM
    • 7 Posts
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    Gaikokujin
    • #3
    • 17th Apr 18, 3:26 PM
    • #3
    • 17th Apr 18, 3:26 PM
    Thanks for the swift response!

    I was getting a little confused reading the newbie advice thread as it recommends not sending anything in the post/by recorded delivery. There is only a postal address on the original UKCPM letter but I have found a general email address on their website so thinking I may send both physical and digital copies of my response just to cover all bases.

    I’ve copied the template letter from the newbie thread and will try to use that as a basis for my response – as with my initial post the response I wrote myself is a little waffly! Will add in a few lines about the misuse of data should they continue to contact me as well.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 18, 4:17 PM
    • 18,119 Posts
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    Redx
    • #4
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:17 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:17 PM
    it tells you that for a reason, a lot use P O Boxes so there is nobody to sign for it , and/or if it is refused you do not have proof of delivery, but of rejection

    a free certificate of posting is what is required from a post office counter , kept with a copy of what was sent , which is what CM has mentioned above

    ie:- you want PROOF OF POSTING , not of delivery

    and you cannot DRAW A LINE UNDER THIS MATTER until 6 years have elapsed , these things do not just "go away" , they want their money and will stop at nothing to get it

    watch the debate in the house of commons on 02 feb 2018 and see what the MP,s think about these sc@mming companies and debt collectors

    and watch WATCHDOG at 2000 tomoroow night to see even more parking sc@ms unfolding
    Last edited by Redx; 17-04-2018 at 5:01 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Gaikokujin
    • By Gaikokujin 17th Apr 18, 4:57 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Gaikokujin
    • #5
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:57 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Apr 18, 4:57 PM
    a free certificate of posting is what is required from a post office counter , kept with a copy of what was sent , which is what CM has mentioned above

    ie:- you want PROOF OF POSTING , not of delivery
    Originally posted by Redx
    Thanks for clarifying about this – will make sure I ask for one of these when I post the letter.

    I’ve drafted up a response based on the template from the newbies advice thread but a little unsure if it reads right. I included the section about what they need to provide if they fail to cancel the charge:

    ‘Should you fail to cancel this PCN I will require the following information with your rejection letter:

    1. Dated photographs of the signs on site which you contend formed a contract.
    2. All images taken of this vehicle on that day, at the material location.’

    but then at the end also put a line about how any attempts to contact me further will be construed as misuse of data:

    ‘I will also advise at this time that further contact from UKCPM on this matter will be taken as misuse of the data obtained from the DVLA, and will be reported accordingly to both the DVLA and the information commissioner’s office (ICO).'

    Not sure if those 2 sections aren’t just contradicting each other? I know they will likely continue to pursue this anyway but by including the first bit am I just inviting them to do so even though I’m also saying if they do it will result in me reporting them?


    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 18, 5:04 PM
    • 18,119 Posts
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    Redx
    • #6
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:04 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Apr 18, 5:04 PM
    you are asking them to either prove their case (with evidence) in contacting you or putting them on notice of a possible DPA breach that if proven means they will be liable for a court claim within 6 years

    fighting fire with fire
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Gaikokujin
    • By Gaikokujin 23rd Apr 18, 10:51 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Gaikokujin
    • #7
    • 23rd Apr 18, 10:51 AM
    • #7
    • 23rd Apr 18, 10:51 AM
    Quick update on my situation: sent off a letter to UKCPM along with an email copy to the address on their website, received a reply the very next day to the latter to say that the charge has been cancelled and this should be the last I will hear from them on it. Result! Thanks to everyone who chipped in with advice
    Last edited by Gaikokujin; 23-04-2018 at 4:58 PM.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 23rd Apr 18, 6:49 PM
    • 9,209 Posts
    • 8,979 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 23rd Apr 18, 6:49 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd Apr 18, 6:49 PM
    Now make them work for their cheek

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Apr 18, 7:01 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,073 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 24th Apr 18, 7:01 PM
    • #9
    • 24th Apr 18, 7:01 PM
    Quick update on my situation: sent off a letter to UKCPM along with an email copy to the address on their website, received a reply the very next day to the latter to say that the charge has been cancelled and this should be the last I will hear from them on it.

    Result! Thanks to everyone who chipped in with advice
    Originally posted by Gaikokujin
    Wow, that's rare with UKCPM. Well done!

    What did your entire appeal say, in full?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Gaikokujin
    • By Gaikokujin 14th May 18, 11:58 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Gaikokujin
    Sorry only just seen this reply. Full transcript of the email and letter I sent to them is below (if anyone else wants to use it for their own appeals then obviously feel free to edit as required):

    Sirs,

    Re PCN Number: XXXXXXX

    I write with regards to the enclosed ‘notice to keeper’ (NTK) letter received from UK Car Park
    Management (UKCPM) on 23rd January 2018, which refers to an alleged parking incident that took
    place on 1st January 2018.

    As the registered keeper of the vehicle I dispute this purported 'parking charge'. I deny all liability and
    consider this notice to be nothing more than harassment and intimidation. There will be no
    admissions as to who was the driver at the time of the alleged offence and no assumptions
    should be drawn from this letter, nor was there any agreed contract.

    As set out in schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), where camera
    equipment has been used to allege a parking offence the NTK letter must be issued to the registered
    keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of the alleged incident occurring. In this instance the date of issue
    for the NTK letter is clearly stated as 19th January 2018 – 18 days after the alleged incident has
    occurred.

    The NTK letter issued is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so as the
    registered keeper of the vehicle I cannot be pursued further on this matter: you must therefore cancel
    this PCN.

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN I will require the following information with your rejection letter:
    1. Dated photographs of the signs on site which you contend formed a contract.
    2. All images taken of this vehicle on that day, at the material location.
    3. A POPLA code so that an independent appeal can be lodged.

    The ‘IAS’ appeals service mentioned in the initial letter from UKCPM is not acceptable. This service
    has been exposed in Parliament as compromised by a conflict of interests with the IPC to which
    UKCPM claims membership and has had its appeal process roundly condemned as unscrupulous
    and biased.

    I will also advise at this time that further contact from UKCPM on this matter will be construed as
    misuse of the data obtained from the DVLA, and will be reported accordingly to both the DVLA and
    the information commissioner’s office (ICO).

    Faithfully,



    XXXXXX




    I will note that since I received the email response from them to say they would no longer be pursuing the charge I have had another letter through from the debt collection agency - which has been filed directly into the bin where it belongs - but seen nothing else at from UKCPM themselves so obviously what I wrote to them had the desired effect!

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 18, 5:29 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    I'd keep the DRP letters and if you get another, issue a LBCCC. Then sue UKCPM for misuse of your data under the DPA, by letting their agents write to demand money under false pretences.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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