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  • FIRST POST
    • redrabbit17
    • By redrabbit17 17th Apr 18, 12:58 AM
    • 7Posts
    • 4Thanks
    redrabbit17
    County Court Claim by SCS Law/UKPC Ltd
    • #1
    • 17th Apr 18, 12:58 AM
    County Court Claim by SCS Law/UKPC Ltd 17th Apr 18 at 12:58 AM
    Hi guys. After spending a whole day reading through the forums and trying to get as much info as possible, I still have a few looming questions that I need guidance with. Apologies for the long post but I want to explain my situation as clearly as possible!

    Scenario - lived in a rented apartment block a few years ago with an underground car park and a courtyard area which was like a one way road with an entrance on one side and an exit on the other. Entry was only by key fob. The courtyard/road could fit 2 cars side by side so people constantly parked there in the unmarked loading areas beside the apartment block and cars could still get past quite easily. I had a designated parking spot with a valid permit which was a small, brightly coloured piece of card that when put on the dashboard - would occasionally slide off onto the floor or passenger seat. I always left it in the car but not always on the dash. I received 3 types of ticket and didn't respond to any of the letters sent afterwards. I am the registered keeper but don't know the designated driver on the days of the tickets.

    The only response I gave was to ring the company and asked to settle out of court. I didn't admit to anything but said I'd pay to cover the letters they sent out and avoid the hassle of court. They offered me a tiny discount which is still too much to pay. Although my solicitor friend advised me to do so I later realised (after reading the forums) that this may not have been the best move I could have made but it has happened now so there isn't much I can do. I believe I have a good case to defend the claim against me but you guys can be the judge of that.

    Ticket 1 - parked in my own spot. Pictures taken show the back of my car with the number plate, but the pics of the front of the car have no number plate visible and are nearly pitch black. Firstly it could be any vehicle and secondly - they are so dark that even if the permit was on the dash - it would not be visible. There are no pictures taken looking onto the passenger seat. My opinion is that the evidence is not clear but I fear that the company could potentially lower the quality of the pictures they sent me and use higher quality images in court? Not sure if this has ever happened or is even legal. What is defined by 'clearly display a parking permit' - does putting it on the passenger seat count as being clearly displayed?

    Ticket 2 - somebody was parked in my spot so I parked in the courtyard area beside the entrance to my apartment block. I wrote a little note explaining why I had parked there and didn't want to park the car outside the secured gates as there is lack of street parking and I didn't want to compromise the security of my vehicle. Nor did I want to park on another residents spot. I put the car to the side so it wasn't in the way or obstructing anyone and I took a picture of the vehicle in my designated parking spot with my permit number clearly visible in the photo. This photo has not been shared and I don't know if I should use it as evidence as the ticket issued is flawed for 2 reasons. Firstly - the charge against me does not say 'parked in a loading area'. Instead it says 'Parked in a residents' parking area without clearly displaying residents' parking permit.'. They took a photo of the note I wrote explaining why I'd parked there but it is completely blurred and unreadable in the photo and half my permit is visible in the shot although not so clear due to it being wet, dark and the reflection of the camera flash obstructing the shot. Secondly - the time between the first photo and the final photo is 3 minutes. Now for someone who lived on the top two floors of the block - even if I was loading at the time, 3 minutes is not enough to even get up to the top, never mind going up, loading and coming back down.

    Ticket 3 - parked in the same spot as ticket 2 but it was daylight and this time the parking charge notice did state 'parked in a loading area' instead of the 'parking without a clearly displayed permit in a residents area'. So on this occasion - they have admitted its a loading area but on the previous occasion they were referring to the spot as a residents parking space? On this occasion I was actually loading. The time between the first picture and the final picture was under 7 minutes. It takes me 3-5 minutes to even get to my flat on occasions, especially with large shopping bags and a child who had just learnt to walk so naturally a) had a tendency to wonder, mainly in the opposite direction of the flat and b) walk really slowly in between falling and trying to get back up. So for me to unload, take everything/everybody upstairs and come back down would easily take around 10mins. The only other option would be to unload outside the lift area, leave the gated complex (as it was a one way system), get back in the complex with my fob, park downstairs and run up to the lift area all in the hope that nobody would steal my shopping.

    I intend to send the acknowledgement of service ASAP so I have a bit of time to formulate a proper defence. I have no copy of the original leasehold of the apartment and the letting agent is being a bit difficult but may be able to get it if I push a little. The tenancy agreement only states that I should park in my designated area and not much else on parking. Do I have a valid case of appeal and any tips on how to structure my defence? For ticket 2 - do I appeal that they filed an incorrect charge against me or do I use the other reason of someone being in my spot and not wanting to cause distress to another resident by parking in their spot? Or could I use both reasons?

    Any help would be appreciated. Many thanks.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Apr 18, 1:24 AM
    • 60,111 Posts
    • 73,239 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 18, 1:24 AM
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 18, 1:24 AM
    The tenancy agreement only states that I should park in my designated area and not much else on parking.
    This is a useful start:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74169666#post74169666

    Read the links, you can ask the site's Managing Agent (NOT the letting agent) for info about the parking contract and while you are about it ask whether the space was private owned or demised to your landlord, if you had a private leaseholder landlord.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • redrabbit17
    • By redrabbit17 1st May 18, 1:01 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    redrabbit17
    • #3
    • 1st May 18, 1:01 AM
    • #3
    • 1st May 18, 1:01 AM
    I am still not having much luck with the lease agreement but still trying.

    In court - is displaying a valid residents permit on the passenger seat not classed as 'clearly displaying a valid residents parking permit'? Especially if its a small bright card without adhesive that slides off the dash on several occasions.

    And is under 10 minutes classed as a valid time to park in a loading bay?

    I need these points for my defence if I can't get hold of my lease agreement or if it does state that the parking company have permission to enforce parking. I have trawled through the forums in search for answers to these questions but to no avail so any help would be appreciated.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 1st May 18, 9:19 AM
    • 3,115 Posts
    • 3,830 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #4
    • 1st May 18, 9:19 AM
    • #4
    • 1st May 18, 9:19 AM
    If their signs dont state otherwise, then it would be up to the court to decide if that was clear enough.

    For your lease - is it a long term lease, and thus registered with the land registry?
    If not then your landlord / LA WILL have one, so get on them. SAR them if needed .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st May 18, 2:48 PM
    • 60,111 Posts
    • 73,239 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 1st May 18, 2:48 PM
    • #5
    • 1st May 18, 2:48 PM
    I am still not having much luck with the lease agreement but still trying.

    In court - is displaying a valid residents permit on the passenger seat not classed as 'clearly displaying a valid residents parking permit'? Especially if its a small bright card without adhesive that slides off the dash on several occasions.

    And is under 10 minutes classed as a valid time to park in a loading bay?

    I need these points for my defence if I can't get hold of my lease agreement or if it does state that the parking company have permission to enforce parking. I have trawled through the forums in search for answers to these questions but to no avail so any help would be appreciated.
    Originally posted by redrabbit17
    I think the straws you are clutching at are far more likely to lose at a hearing (if the signs say 'display on the dashboard') and you absolutely must get a copy of the lease.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 1st May 18, 2:51 PM
    • 9,968 Posts
    • 9,764 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #6
    • 1st May 18, 2:51 PM
    • #6
    • 1st May 18, 2:51 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 02-05-2018 at 9:17 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • redrabbit17
    • By redrabbit17 1st May 18, 11:59 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    redrabbit17
    • #7
    • 1st May 18, 11:59 PM
    • #7
    • 1st May 18, 11:59 PM
    The signs do not specify dashboard or what part of the car, they merely say clearly display a valid parking permit. In my eyes - a bright coloured permit on the passenger seat is quite clear. But I know that would be down to the judge. The signs are also not very clearly visible. All the photographs of the signs provided by UKPC are blurry, even when taken from close up and none of the writing can be made out.

    The tenancy agreement has the same wording - 'clearly display parking permit' but doesn't mention dashboard or anything about loading and most certainly doesn't mention any fines.
    • redrabbit17
    • By redrabbit17 2nd May 18, 12:02 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    redrabbit17
    • #8
    • 2nd May 18, 12:02 AM
    • #8
    • 2nd May 18, 12:02 AM
    If their signs dont state otherwise, then it would be up to the court to decide if that was clear enough.

    For your lease - is it a long term lease, and thus registered with the land registry?
    If not then your landlord / LA WILL have one, so get on them. SAR them if needed .
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    It was only a short term lease where I could cancel with short notice. I only lived there for around 18 months. I will get back on the case with the letting agent on Wednesday morning.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd May 18, 12:30 AM
    • 60,111 Posts
    • 73,239 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 2nd May 18, 12:30 AM
    • #9
    • 2nd May 18, 12:30 AM
    The tenancy agreement has the same wording - 'clearly display parking permit' but doesn't mention dashboard or anything about loading and most certainly doesn't mention any fines.
    Good, so you signed an agreement that does not include any actual 'relevant obligation' (to have to display the permit, it's more of a request and certainly with no repercussions).

    Your agreement does not include any penalty for not displaying that permit and, nor - I doubt - does your agreement say something like ''Tenants must also observe the site regulations as set out in the {car park/road/communal outside area or whatever} for full terms and conditions, which form part of the permit scheme for tenants and which you accept by signing this tenancy agreement''.

    Nope? Thought not.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • redrabbit17
    • By redrabbit17 2nd May 18, 11:48 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    redrabbit17
    Good, so you signed an agreement that does not include any actual 'relevant obligation' (to have to display the permit, it's more of a request and certainly with no repercussions).

    Your agreement does not include any penalty for not displaying that permit and, nor - I doubt - does your agreement say something like ''Tenants must also observe the site regulations as set out in the {car park/road/communal outside area or whatever} for full terms and conditions, which form part of the permit scheme for tenants and which you accept by signing this tenancy agreement''.

    Nope? Thought not.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Spot on. I actually got the wording wrong in my previous post. I've scanned my tenancy agreement properly this time and it has no mention of permits whatsoever. It states:

    “If you rent a specific car parking space or garage as part of this tenancy, you must only park in that space and not store, keep or park any boat, caravan or commercial vehicle on it or on any shared car park”

    Although for the loading area tickets it says:

    “ You must not park cars in any yard, garden or driveway of the building”

    That does worry me slightly but 8 minutes between first and final photos with unclear signage may work in my favour. The agreement has no other mention of parking or related matters.

    The LA is still not helping much with the lease agreement of the owner. The best they can do is contact him and ask for a copy as they claim to not have one. They have asked me to call back in 6 days but the deadline for my defence is in 6-7 days so its cutting it a bit fine.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 2nd May 18, 1:10 PM
    • 3,115 Posts
    • 3,830 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Just add it to the defence now, you dont need evidence yet - you have a good faith belief in what the lease says, so youre not in the wrong for including it

    Assuming it is a long lease then the land registry WILL have a copy.
    • JakeG
    • By JakeG 3rd May 18, 1:04 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    JakeG
    redrabbit17,

    My advice, it's not legal advice, but just my thoughts.
    1) Make sure you get your Defence in on time, follow the advice from the Parking Prankster and this site to do so. If they can get you on a technicality they will, so don't let them.
    2) The DVLA has suspended UKPC this week for some inappropriate behavior. It's worth letting them know you are aware of that fact it might make them more reluctant to chase you.
    3) It's important you get a copy of the Tenancy agreement, there is a lot of case law that your circumstances are different to the Beavis case since it's a residential case. It's also one of the examples MPs made a point of discussing in their debate over the Parking Bill they should be passing into law soon. Reasonable judges seem to agree going after a tenant is poor form.
    4) Make it clear that the pass was visible and on display in the car, the fact that it was on a seat makes no difference to that fact. You informed them of that fact and they are still pursuing this against a tenant which is extremely unreasonable. It's also unreasonable for them to punish you for your vehicle being unable to park in your parking spot when it was occupied.
    5) There is case law on the meaning of parking and stopping to unload is arguably not parking it's a point you'll have to argue. It appears obvious to me that on two of the occasions you were loading your car and that you weren't gone from your vehicle long enough for them to claim you were parked, this seems unfair.
    6) Check for any mistakes in their paperwork and require them to provide you with proof that they have any contract that allows them to take you to court and to prove each infraction. Often when challenged UKPC can't even provide the contract they want to rely on and they have got into trouble in the past with fraudulently manipulating evidence so make them provide proof. They are also notorious for being sloppy in their paperwork.
    7) Make it clear that you do not admit to being the driver and that you require them to prove that you were. If they have made any mistakes on the PCNs regarding information that were required to include by POFA then they will have to prove you were the driver to establish keeper's liability against you since you do not admit to being the driver.
    8) Let them know you are aware that they were named as one of the companies acting in bad faith during the Parliamentary debate for doing exactly what they are doing in this case. Do contact your MP since all parties agree on this issue and your MP is very likely to want to help you and will likely be willing to act on your behalf.
    9) Be aware that UKPC and SCS Law read these forums and will have no issues with misconstruing what you are saying on these forums so be careful with how you word things.
    10) Get help now so that you're prepared.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd May 18, 1:09 AM
    • 60,111 Posts
    • 73,239 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Interesting first post from a person posting late at night like me.

    inappropriate behavior.
    Originally posted by JakeG
    I've seen communications before from someone who spelt 'behavior' that way.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-05-2018 at 2:55 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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