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  • FIRST POST
    • Deastons
    • By Deastons 16th Apr 18, 9:28 PM
    • 198Posts
    • 114Thanks
    Deastons
    Can a shopkeeper refuse to give change?
    • #1
    • 16th Apr 18, 9:28 PM
    Can a shopkeeper refuse to give change? 16th Apr 18 at 9:28 PM
    If, displayed very clearly by the till, was a sign saying "We do not give change" could a shop simply take your money and refuse change? I'm guessing not.

    So why do most car park machines not give change? They can give change. The technology exists. But they're obviously programmed to not do so.

    My local car park charges a minimal amount . But the minimum charge for cards is 3.50 (6 hrs parking). And it won't give change when paying cash.

    Seems to me this is an obvious way of stealing people's money.
Page 2
    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 17th Apr 18, 8:25 PM
    • 3,396 Posts
    • 4,971 Thanks
    powerful_Rogue
    Two points:

    a) a bus driver is free to reject your custom - there is no debt if he doesn't accept you on his bus so he would not have to accept any legal tender.

    b) I dont think you are right regarding stamps http://blog.royalmint.com/are-stamps-legal-tender/
    Originally posted by OlliesDad
    If the bus driver refuses your stamps, then as long as you have enough you could order a taxi and pay with them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAcdV019oMQ
    • bris
    • By bris 17th Apr 18, 8:45 PM
    • 7,583 Posts
    • 6,604 Thanks
    bris
    While theres no law that expressly states it, that happening would go against the rules of contract law and contract formation where the acceptance needs to exactly match the terms of the offer.

    Theres also the various laws around unfair or misleading trading practices to consider.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Accepting the fact that you have been warned that no change is given forms part of that contract before acceptance has taken place so you are wrong.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 17th Apr 18, 9:25 PM
    • 12,286 Posts
    • 9,615 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Accepting the fact that you have been warned that no change is given forms part of that contract before acceptance has taken place so you are wrong.
    Originally posted by bris
    I thought we'd already established that no change given means they won't change your 10 for 10 1 coins.

    Not to mention it would fall foul of unfair term legislation in addition to the unfair advertising/trading practices.

    They are particularly big on misleading pricing right now - which was their reasoning behind prohibiting traders from charging different amounts depending on what payment method people used (which is another law they'd fall foul of refusing to give change if they would accept a card payment, cheque, bank transfer etc for the exact amount), because it let them advertise one cheaper price yet potentially charge a different price at the end.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • OlliesDad
    • By OlliesDad 17th Apr 18, 9:39 PM
    • 1,770 Posts
    • 1,649 Thanks
    OlliesDad
    I see my lack of Office watching has let me down
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 18th Apr 18, 9:51 AM
    • 1,764 Posts
    • 9,373 Thanks
    NBLondon
    I thought we'd already established that no change given means they won't change your 10 for 10 1 coins.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Not necessarily... It could mean "No, we won't give you change for the bus - please don't annoy us by asking" or it could mean "We won't give change" in the sense of "Exact Change Only" which is what the signs on buses used to say when I were a lad... Now you could say that there's an ambiguity there which might make it challengeable as misleading.

    What about the case of shopkeeper does not have enough actual change in the till when customer offers a 50 note for a packet of Polos? They are entitled to ask for alternative payment "haven't you got anything smaller?" or decline your custom at that point. As you said - insisting on exact change for every transaction is bad business practice. Given that handling of physical cash can cost the shopkeeper time/effort/banking charges I can foresee the time when some businesses might actually try and say "Contactless Only" and accept that they lose a few customers, if enough other customers prefer that option.
    Womble #7 - Running Total 9.68 $1.99 3.35 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.05 C$0.88 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 18th Apr 18, 11:54 AM
    • 13,010 Posts
    • 11,052 Thanks
    zagfles
    No it doesn't. They (for example) are offering to buy the product at 2.99 - they then offer to pay for it by using a 10 note. The two are separate.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    What says the shopkeeper must provide exact change, rather than the customer must provide exact money?
    As for refusing notes, thats a whole different scenario because the shopkeeper isn't changing the price of anything.
    No-one's changing the price. If the shopkeeper can refuse to accept a 50, why can't he refuse to accepts a 10?
    As for the discussion around legal tender...it is basically a defence in english law if you are sued for non-payment of debt, that you offered to pay in legal tender. It does not govern the rules of what currency or notes must be used for ordinary transactions. A retailer could opt to only be paid in brass buttons if they so wished, just it would be a silly business decision not to accept the currency widely used in the country you're operating.
    So he could make a business decision to accept brass buttons, but not a business decision to accept, say, only coins for a 2.99 transaction? Is that what you're saying?
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 19th Apr 18, 3:54 PM
    • 12,286 Posts
    • 9,615 Thanks
    unholyangel
    What says the shopkeeper must provide exact change, rather than the customer must provide exact money? No-one's changing the price.

    If the shopkeeper can refuse to accept a 50, why can't he refuse to accepts a 10?

    So he could make a business decision to accept brass buttons, but not a business decision to accept, say, only coins for a 2.99 transaction? Is that what you're saying?
    Originally posted by zagfles
    1. Because you agree a price of x - the terms under which payment is made is completely different to the term setting the price. If you overpay your bills, you're entitled to the excess back - the trader has no claim in law to it. Not to mention how bad it is for your accounts to have a discrepancy in the till.

    2. You're comparing apples and oranges. One scenario where a trader refuses to accept 50 and does not enter into a transaction against one where the trader accepts the 10, enters into the contract but then refuses to give any change.

    3. How did you so spectacularly manage to misunderstand what I was saying? If he can determine only to accept brass buttons, then he can determine to only be paid in coin. What he cannot do is agree one price, take someones money then refuse to give change.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 19th Apr 18, 4:10 PM
    • 9,958 Posts
    • 11,231 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    In fact, a postage stamp is legal tender. A busdriver would have to accept that as currency.
    Originally posted by powerful_Rogue
    I really wish it was true because if it was, I have a foolproof method to earn an instant 5+% return on my savings.

    Simply buy 180 first class stamps from Costco for 114 delivered to my house then take those stamps and pay them into the bank at their face value of 120.60.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 19th Apr 18, 9:23 PM
    • 13,010 Posts
    • 11,052 Thanks
    zagfles
    1. Because you agree a price of x - the terms under which payment is made is completely different to the term setting the price. If you overpay your bills, you're entitled to the excess back - the trader has no claim in law to it. Not to mention how bad it is for your accounts to have a discrepancy in the till.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    But vending machines, parking machines, parking meters, payphones etc are exempt? As they often allow overpayment without giving change. Is there a different law when using a payment machine?
    2. You're comparing apples and oranges. One scenario where a trader refuses to accept 50 and does not enter into a transaction against one where the trader accepts the 10, enters into the contract but then refuses to give any change.
    I wasn't expecting him to take the 10 without the customer knowing, or being told, he can't/won't give change. I was thinking about a scenario where he doesn't have change, or he wants exact money only.
    3. How did you so spectacularly manage to misunderstand what I was saying? If he can determine only to accept brass buttons, then he can determine to only be paid in coin. What he cannot do is agree one price, take someones money then refuse to give change.
    But payment machines can, apparently?
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 19th Apr 18, 10:27 PM
    • 12,286 Posts
    • 9,615 Thanks
    unholyangel
    But vending machines, parking machines, parking meters, payphones etc are exempt? As they often allow overpayment without giving change. Is there a different law when using a payment machine?I wasn't expecting him to take the 10 without the customer knowing, or being told, he can't/won't give change. I was thinking about a scenario where he doesn't have change, or he wants exact money only. But payment machines can, apparently?
    Originally posted by zagfles
    Next and debenhams used to flout DSRs.....didn't mean what they were doing was legal though and nor does it show any support in law of it.

    As for the vending question...I've never had any problems with vending machines or parking machines not giving change. Theres usually an attendant of sorts who has access to the machine or who can do it manually.

    But to pose one of your own sort of questions to you.....vending machines (and other machines) sometimes wont give you the item you paid for, does that mean you think its legal for a trader to take your money and not give you anything in return?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Rainbowgirl84
    • By Rainbowgirl84 19th Apr 18, 11:56 PM
    • 504 Posts
    • 892 Thanks
    Rainbowgirl84
    Is it legal for a 'seller' to say exact money only...no change given?
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 20th Apr 18, 12:09 AM
    • 1,708 Posts
    • 2,291 Thanks
    NeilCr

    As for the vending question...I've never had any problems with vending machines or parking machines not giving change. Theres usually an attendant of sorts who has access to the machine or who can do it manually.

    ?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Think you are quite lucky with parking machines

    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/councils-raking-in-your-cash-180184/

    My council isn't listed there but they are the same. And not an attendant in site. Likewise the Morrison's car park I use when I volunteer.

    A quick google search (can't sleep) shows many other councils in different parts of the country are the same.
    Last edited by NeilCr; 20-04-2018 at 12:26 AM.
    • Deastons
    • By Deastons 20th Apr 18, 10:19 AM
    • 198 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    Deastons
    Is it legal for a 'seller' to say exact money only...no change given?
    Originally posted by Rainbowgirl84
    I know cab drivers can legally short change you if they don't have enough change (as in you would have to overpay rather than them settle for an underpayment).
    • Deastons
    • By Deastons 20th Apr 18, 10:25 AM
    • 198 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    Deastons
    What about the case of shopkeeper does not have enough actual change in the till when customer offers a 50 note for a packet of Polos? They are entitled to ask for alternative payment "haven't you got anything smaller?" or decline your custom at that point.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    In the case of parking, when I came to pay, I'd already used the service. I had to pay for my parking to exit the car park.

    But I think the terms of the payment were unfair:
    I could pay by cash, but as I didn't have the exact amount I would have to overpay. Or I could pay on card, but there was a minimum 3.50 card payment. So either way, I was required to pay more for my parking that was stated on the tariff board (where it made no mention of needing exact change nor the 3.50 minimum card payment).

    And I still maintain that the machine can give change, but the decision has been made to disable that facility as there is additional money to be made by doing so.


    The reason the machines don't give change is usually because that makes the machines more expensive to buy and maintain, and requires them to be continually topped up with change.
    Originally posted by lammy82
    Surely if the machine is giving change back to customers, it would need less maintenance, as it would fill with cash more slowly. And if needing to pay someone to maintain it really is an issue, why not reduce the minimum card payment to that of the lowest tarriff?
    Last edited by Deastons; 20-04-2018 at 10:29 AM.
    • peachyprice
    • By peachyprice 20th Apr 18, 12:33 PM
    • 19,367 Posts
    • 44,904 Thanks
    peachyprice
    There is no law that says shops have to give change. Such a sign would therefore be legal. If you don't like the terms of the contract then don't enter into a contract.
    Originally posted by waamo
    Are you sure about that? If I paid for a 1 ice cream with a 10 note the shop can legally keep the 9 change?
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
    • peachyprice
    • By peachyprice 20th Apr 18, 12:40 PM
    • 19,367 Posts
    • 44,904 Thanks
    peachyprice
    What says the shopkeeper must provide exact change, rather than the customer must provide exact money? No-one's changing the price. If the shopkeeper can refuse to accept a 50, why can't he refuse to accepts a 10?So he could make a business decision to accept brass buttons, but not a business decision to accept, say, only coins for a 2.99 transaction? Is that what you're saying?
    Originally posted by zagfles
    There's a huge difference between not accepting a 10 note and accepting a 10 and not giving the change back!

    Scenario 1: You go in to a shop, buy something for 1, you only have a 10 note, they don't have change, you leave your item behind.

    Scenario 2: You go in to a shop, buy something for 1, you only have a 10 note, they take your 10 note, close the till and tell you you can't have your 9 change.
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
    • waamo
    • By waamo 20th Apr 18, 12:42 PM
    • 3,183 Posts
    • 4,212 Thanks
    waamo
    Are you sure about that? If I paid for a 1 ice cream with a 10 note the shop can legally keep the 9 change?
    Originally posted by peachyprice
    If it is made clear enough that the terms of sale mean no change is given and you agree to that then yes they could.

    A sale is ultimately a contract. If both parties agree to a contract why shouldn't it be allowed?
    This space for hire.
    • peachyprice
    • By peachyprice 20th Apr 18, 12:43 PM
    • 19,367 Posts
    • 44,904 Thanks
    peachyprice
    But vending machines, parking machines, parking meters, payphones etc are exempt? As they often allow overpayment without giving change. Is there a different law when using a payment machine?I wasn't expecting him to take the 10 without the customer knowing, or being told, he can't/won't give change. I was thinking about a scenario where he doesn't have change, or he wants exact money only. But payment machines can, apparently?
    Originally posted by zagfles
    I think that is the whole point of OP starting this thread
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
    • peachyprice
    • By peachyprice 20th Apr 18, 12:45 PM
    • 19,367 Posts
    • 44,904 Thanks
    peachyprice
    If it is made clear enough that the terms of sale mean no change is given and you agree to that then yes they could.

    A sale is ultimately a contract. If both parties agree to a contract why shouldn't it be allowed?
    Originally posted by waamo
    Then they shopkeeper would not be selling 1 ice creams, he would be using dynamic pricing based whether you pay cash or card. Is that legal?

    Not all contract terms are legal just because both parties agree. A retailer cannot withdraw your consumer rights but because you agree they can.
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
    • waamo
    • By waamo 20th Apr 18, 12:49 PM
    • 3,183 Posts
    • 4,212 Thanks
    waamo
    Then they shopkeeper would not be selling 1 ice creams, he would be using dynamic pricing based whether you pay cash or card. Is that legal?

    Not all contract terms are legal just because both parties agree. A retailer cannot withdraw your consumer rights but because you agree they can.
    Originally posted by peachyprice
    I don't see that he is using dynamic pricing. He is selling you a 1 ice cream. He simply isn't giving change. If you had a 1 coin then you can buy it just the same.

    Or you could go and get your 10 changed and buy it. It's a fixed price.
    This space for hire.
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