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  • FIRST POST
    • majnov
    • By majnov 16th Apr 18, 4:55 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 0Thanks
    majnov
    Private car sale, Buyer rights, Ford with TCM fault.
    • #1
    • 16th Apr 18, 4:55 PM
    Private car sale, Buyer rights, Ford with TCM fault. 16th Apr 18 at 4:55 PM
    Hi,

    I bought a second-hand car Focus 2012 one week ago through a private sale, the car was advertised in a mint condition/drive good, etc.
    I went for a short test drive, all ok during such a short drive. I bought the car(cat D) with expired MOT as of 28th March. I pickup the car 2 days after I bought it, arranged MOT and drove back to London. The car lost power after 40 miles on a motorway causing a danger on the road, it happened one more time on the motorway.

    I took the car to a local garage, has been checked with U0101 code, lack of communication with TCM/TCU. MOT passed ok. The car has numerously lost it power or went into neutral gear.
    After further diagnostics with Ford IDS, 2 permanent faults in TCM unit and the unit must be replaced.

    I learned that Ford Fiesta and Ford Focus equipped with DPS6 Automatic Transmission manufactured between 2011/2012-2015/2016 develop the problem with TCM through its age/mileage due to the manufacturing fault, it has been recalled in the USA and extended guarantees for 10 years in the USA, 7 years in Australia and 5 years in the UK. Based on this, Ford Service has rejected my claim as the guarantee expired in last year.

    I bought a used TCM unit on Ebay so the repair would cost me at least 400 pounds if it is feasible to repair with this part.
    +++
    What are my rights as the private buyer? Could I take the seller to the small claims court to claim the repair cost? I informed the seller about the problem at the same date it developed a problem, the seller said he did not know anything about the problem but it is my car, sold as seen. I made a contract and I put in writing all visible marks on the body and the seller signed, which means that the fault was prior to the sale as this will not develop suddenly and the seller has hidden it.

    I already messaged the seller today, that I would like him to share the repair cost, otherwise, I am going to put a claim in a small claims court !!!8211; no answer so far.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by majnov; 16-04-2018 at 5:16 PM.
Page 3
    • markudman
    • By markudman 17th Apr 18, 8:40 PM
    • 272 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    markudman
    It absolutely IS a point of law for PRIVATE SALES. It no longer applies to commercial sales to a private individual and hasn't for some time.

    If you actually READ THE CONTENTS of the link you posted you'd see in the FIRST LINE:

    "Many rogue traders use these terms when selling something that is duff, defective etc..."

    Traders, people selling as a business. Not private sellers.

    https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand-car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights

    You have fewer rights when you buy a used car from a private seller, and key parts of the Consumer Rights Act don't apply. For example, there is no legal requirement for a car to be of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose. If you're buying from a private seller, the onus is on you as the buyer to ask all the right questions before making the purchase. The seller doesn't have to volunteer extra information so, if you don't ask questions, you may not have the full picture of the car's history or be aware of any potential faults.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    'Sold as seen' is innapropriate unless youve visually inspected the item which is unlikely, even then it only have moral and pehaps ethical standing, not legal

    Rejecting a second-hand car
    If there's a problem with a second-hand car soon after you've bought it - for example, the car develops a problem you wouldn't expect for its age and mileage, or it turns out not to be what youíd been led to expect - you May have the right to reject it and get your money back. this is a well known Fault on this car and if you research you'll know that. so sorry, your wrong.
    Last edited by markudman; 17-04-2018 at 8:47 PM.
    We may not win by protesting, but if we donít protest we will lose.
    If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 17th Apr 18, 8:40 PM
    • 20,136 Posts
    • 15,858 Thanks
    agrinnall
    As I mentioned, I paid £3K.
    Originally posted by majnov

    You didn't mention it at all, which is why previous posters had to ask you several times for the amount.
    • Nodding Donkey
    • By Nodding Donkey 17th Apr 18, 9:12 PM
    • 2,533 Posts
    • 2,142 Thanks
    Nodding Donkey
    You didn't mention it at all, which is why previous posters had to ask you several times for the amount.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    The price was in post #10
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 18th Apr 18, 12:54 AM
    • 3,053 Posts
    • 4,132 Thanks
    George Michael
    'Sold as seen' is innapropriate unless youve visually inspected the item which is unlikely, even then it only have moral and pehaps ethical standing, not legal

    Rejecting a second-hand car
    If there's a problem with a second-hand car soon after you've bought it - for example, the car develops a problem you wouldn't expect for its age and mileage, or it turns out not to be what youíd been led to expect - you May have the right to reject it and get your money back. this is a well known Fault on this car and if you research you'll know that. so sorry, your wrong.
    Originally posted by markudman

    All of that info has been copied and pasted from an ebay blog so is totally irrelevant as the sale in question was made face to face.
    Goods bought privately do not have to be free from faults nor do they have to be fit for purpose or durable.
    Provided that the seller had the legal right to sell the goods and to the best of the seller's knowledge, they matched their description, any faults that come to light after purchase are not the responsibility of the seller.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 18th Apr 18, 1:41 AM
    • 2,846 Posts
    • 2,059 Thanks
    Tarambor
    ' and if you research you'll know that. so sorry, your wrong.
    Originally posted by markudman
    Find me any consumer group or government website which says I'm wrong. Do you think Which? don't know consumer law? The first page of results on Google will say the same as I posted.

    Just because a car has a common fault, you buy that car and that fault happens after you've bought it doesn't give you the ability to make a claim against a private seller. Had it had that fault when it was sold, you asked the seller specifically if it did and they said it didn't then you'd have a cause for a claim but this isn't what happened in this respect. If you didn't ask them they are under no obligation to say it has that fault even if it was present when it was sold, the onus in law for a private sale is on you to find out.
    Last edited by Tarambor; 18-04-2018 at 1:44 AM.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 18th Apr 18, 8:31 AM
    • 20,136 Posts
    • 15,858 Thanks
    agrinnall
    The price was in post #10
    Originally posted by Nodding Donkey
    So it was, just not very obvious without a £ sign.
    • markudman
    • By markudman 18th Apr 18, 8:59 AM
    • 272 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    markudman
    '

    Rejecting a second-hand car
    If there's a problem with a second-hand car soon after you've bought it - for example, the car develops a problem you wouldn't expect for its age and mileage, or it turns out not to be what you!!!8217;d been led to expect - you May have the right to reject it and get your money back. this is a well known Fault on this car and if you research you'll know that. so sorry, your wrong.
    Originally posted by markudman
    This was from the Which website not eBay.
    https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand-car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights
    and the fact will be, he brought a cat D with no MOT, I would buy something like this (not a ford with a auto box) and know the risk, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
    And any court of law will see this,


    The bottom line is, does he want to waste his time and money.

    You must describe the used car accurately so as not to mislead buyers. If they ask about the car, you should answer truthfully.

    You don't have to volunteer information about faults, although wed never suggest you sell a used car if you know it is dangerous to drive.

    The Sale of Goods Act 1979 gives protection when someone is buying from a dealer, but doesn't cover private sales. So, provided that you've been honest in your dealings, a buyer has little legal comeback if the car develops any faults.
    Legally, a buyer has few options for redress against a private seller. If you described the car fairly and it was yours to sell, there is little he or she can do even if it breaks down and requires expensive repairs. Unless the buyer can prove that the car was unroadworthy on the day of sale, you need not offer to help.

    However, if you described the car as having, say, a year's MOT when it was actually about to expire, the buyer would be due compensation.

    So back to, Does the IDS show fault history, this will be the Silver bullet, as it will show when the fault first appeared.

    Sold as seen is a myth
    Last edited by markudman; 18-04-2018 at 9:05 AM.
    We may not win by protesting, but if we donít protest we will lose.
    If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.
    • k12479
    • By k12479 18th Apr 18, 11:09 AM
    • 399 Posts
    • 659 Thanks
    k12479
    Does the IDS show fault history, this will be the Silver bullet, as it will show when the fault first appeared.
    Originally posted by markudman
    Not necessarily a 'silver bullet' though. Fault codes rarely point out the specific moment in time that a particular problem occurred, rather where 'something' has or is happening. It doesn't mean the seller knew of or experienced any problems, the fact it didn't show up on a test drive and only after a 40 mile drive doesn't help either.
    • markudman
    • By markudman 18th Apr 18, 11:21 AM
    • 272 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    markudman
    Not necessarily a 'silver bullet' though. Fault codes rarely point out the specific moment in time that a particular problem occurred, rather where 'something' has or is happening. It doesn't mean the seller knew of or experienced any problems, the fact it didn't show up on a test drive and only after a 40 mile drive doesn't help either.
    Originally posted by k12479
    Hi have a few dealer lever Diagnostic tools, Mainly German ones, IE BMW, Mercedes, VW group all show when the fault first occurred, and how many times it has occurred, so you have a timeline.this helps with a difficult faults, So could be the information that he is looking for, if he needs prove, As also said I do not have the Ford/ Mazda IDS so not sure if in records this info.
    We may not win by protesting, but if we donít protest we will lose.
    If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.
    • k12479
    • By k12479 18th Apr 18, 11:30 AM
    • 399 Posts
    • 659 Thanks
    k12479
    But the logging of faults doesn't mean the driver noticed anything amiss or ever suffered an issue. There could be intermittent faults logged over years and only now has it got to being an issue. Many people would probably be surprised by what faults their vehicles have picked up. You can't say fault logged = you knew of the problem.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 18th Apr 18, 12:03 PM
    • 9,960 Posts
    • 11,232 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    The Sale of Goods Act 1979 gives protection when someone is buying from a dealer but doesn't cover private sales.
    Originally posted by markudman
    Well if that's what the writers at Which believed to be true, I wouldn't trust anything else that they wrote.
    The SOGA did cover private sales, it's just that not all of it applied.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 18th Apr 18, 2:12 PM
    • 2,846 Posts
    • 2,059 Thanks
    Tarambor
    As also said I do not have the Ford/ Mazda IDS so not sure if in records this info.
    Originally posted by markudman
    I have Forscan for my Mondeo/MX5, it doesn't show a date stamp for when they occur in that.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 18th Apr 18, 2:15 PM
    • 2,846 Posts
    • 2,059 Thanks
    Tarambor
    Well if that's what the writers at Which believed to be true, I wouldn't trust anything else that they wrote.
    The SOGA did cover private sales, it's just that not all of it applied.
    Originally posted by shaun from Africa
    The only thing SOGA gave you protection for with a private sale is if the seller lied. The Consumer Rights Act which replaced it and is even tighter than SOGA for protection offers the exact same protections. What is in the CRA for private sales is what was in SOGA. The reason private sellers are not held to the same standards as a business is because it is unreasonable to expect them to be knowledgeable about what they're selling other than from an end user point of view. It is not reasonable to expect every car owner who sells their car to be a motor vehicle engineer who has disassembled the vehicle and carried out a full invasive inspection.

    Well if that's what the writers at Which believed to be true, I wouldn't trust anything else that they wrote.
    The SOGA did cover private sales, it's just that not all of it applied.
    Originally posted by shaun from Africa
    Given that the first several pages of Google search results give exactly the same advice as Which? including government and CAB ones, I guess you'll not trust anything they say as well? Who are you going to trust then if you don't trust official sources, government departments that enforce trading law, charities that are there to help those in trouble and motoring organisations?
    Last edited by Tarambor; 18-04-2018 at 2:17 PM.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 18th Apr 18, 3:56 PM
    • 9,960 Posts
    • 11,232 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    The only thing SOGA gave you protection for with a private sale is if the seller lied.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    If you are going to try to correct others, you really should try to make sure that what you post is totally correct as the SOGA did not only give you protection if the seller lied.
    The act also stated that the seller must have the legal right to sell the goods concerned.

    Are you saying that that I was wrong and Which were correct in stating that the SOGA did not cover private sales?

    Could you post a link to one of the government websites that clearly states that the SOGA did not cover private sales in any way.

    As for the CAB.
    No, I very rarely trust them as they do make a fair few errors on their website.
    They are still stating that it is illegal to open mail intended for another person which on its own, is not illegal.
    It is against the law to open mail that is intended for someone else. It is also against the law for an employee of Royal Mail to open or tamper with items of post.
    https://www.citizensadvicebroxbourne.org/advice-page.php?page=%2Fdevelopment%2Fold-post%2Fpost%2Fproblems-with-post%2Fproblems-with-post-delivery%2Fyour-post-is-being-opened-or-tampered-with%2F
    • markudman
    • By markudman 18th Apr 18, 4:53 PM
    • 272 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    markudman
    I have Forscan for my Mondeo/MX5, it doesn't show a date stamp for when they occur in that.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Yes I have forscan as well, but do not work on fords very much,
    the last one I worked was a diesel, had to replace the Actuator due to the variable veins on the Turbo sticking, removed turbo oven cleaned the veins and a happy ford LOL
    We may not win by protesting, but if we donít protest we will lose.
    If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 18th Apr 18, 5:03 PM
    • 1,354 Posts
    • 927 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    This was from the Which website not eBay.
    https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand-car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights
    and the fact will be, he brought a cat D with no MOT, I would buy something like this (not a ford with a auto box) and know the risk, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
    And any court of law will see this,


    The bottom line is, does he want to waste his time and money.

    You must describe the used car accurately so as not to mislead buyers. If they ask about the car, you should answer truthfully.

    You don't have to volunteer information about faults, although wed never suggest you sell a used car if you know it is dangerous to drive.

    The Sale of Goods Act 1979 gives protection when someone is buying from a dealer, but doesn't cover private sales. So, provided that you've been honest in your dealings, a buyer has little legal comeback if the car develops any faults.
    Legally, a buyer has few options for redress against a private seller. If you described the car fairly and it was yours to sell, there is little he or she can do even if it breaks down and requires expensive repairs. Unless the buyer can prove that the car was unroadworthy on the day of sale, you need not offer to help.

    However, if you described the car as having, say, a year's MOT when it was actually about to expire, the buyer would be due compensation.

    So back to, Does the IDS show fault history, this will be the Silver bullet, as it will show when the fault first appeared.

    Sold as seen is a myth
    Originally posted by markudman
    Shouldnít that be gave?
    • markudman
    • By markudman 18th Apr 18, 5:07 PM
    • 272 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    markudman
    Shouldnít that be gave?
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    not sure, i'm a mechanic,
    We may not win by protesting, but if we donít protest we will lose.
    If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 18th Apr 18, 5:29 PM
    • 1,354 Posts
    • 927 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    not sure, i'm a mechanic,
    Originally posted by markudman
    Consumer Rights Act replaced it in 2015.
    • markudman
    • By markudman 18th Apr 18, 5:32 PM
    • 272 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    markudman
    Consumer Rights Act replaced it in 2015.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    Thank you I'm fairly new and learning all the time.
    We may not win by protesting, but if we donít protest we will lose.
    If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.
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