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  • FIRST POST
    • majnov
    • By majnov 16th Apr 18, 4:55 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 0Thanks
    majnov
    Private car sale, Buyer rights, Ford with TCM fault.
    • #1
    • 16th Apr 18, 4:55 PM
    Private car sale, Buyer rights, Ford with TCM fault. 16th Apr 18 at 4:55 PM
    Hi,

    I bought a second-hand car Focus 2012 one week ago through a private sale, the car was advertised in a mint condition/drive good, etc.
    I went for a short test drive, all ok during such a short drive. I bought the car(cat D) with expired MOT as of 28th March. I pickup the car 2 days after I bought it, arranged MOT and drove back to London. The car lost power after 40 miles on a motorway causing a danger on the road, it happened one more time on the motorway.

    I took the car to a local garage, has been checked with U0101 code, lack of communication with TCM/TCU. MOT passed ok. The car has numerously lost it power or went into neutral gear.
    After further diagnostics with Ford IDS, 2 permanent faults in TCM unit and the unit must be replaced.

    I learned that Ford Fiesta and Ford Focus equipped with DPS6 Automatic Transmission manufactured between 2011/2012-2015/2016 develop the problem with TCM through its age/mileage due to the manufacturing fault, it has been recalled in the USA and extended guarantees for 10 years in the USA, 7 years in Australia and 5 years in the UK. Based on this, Ford Service has rejected my claim as the guarantee expired in last year.

    I bought a used TCM unit on Ebay so the repair would cost me at least 400 pounds if it is feasible to repair with this part.
    +++
    What are my rights as the private buyer? Could I take the seller to the small claims court to claim the repair cost? I informed the seller about the problem at the same date it developed a problem, the seller said he did not know anything about the problem but it is my car, sold as seen. I made a contract and I put in writing all visible marks on the body and the seller signed, which means that the fault was prior to the sale as this will not develop suddenly and the seller has hidden it.

    I already messaged the seller today, that I would like him to share the repair cost, otherwise, I am going to put a claim in a small claims court !!!8211; no answer so far.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by majnov; 16-04-2018 at 5:16 PM.
Page 2
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 16th Apr 18, 6:17 PM
    • 26,830 Posts
    • 10,784 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    As I mentioned, I paid £3K.At some point, it looks a great price but it might looks that something would be wrong with the car due to price. Engine is good, Gearbox is good only TCM is a problem.

    It depends what was the damage to be a CAT D write off. It can be very slight body damage and the bill from authorised dealer can be £4-5K.
    Originally posted by majnov

    You paid a good price for a Cat D car, after you have fixed your fault. Enjoy your car..
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • majnov
    • By majnov 16th Apr 18, 6:20 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    majnov
    So it drove ok when you bought it.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    Yes, at that time. On the same day, I went to a car wash and I could not start the engine. I thought it might be a low battery in a remote control as the message was shown while I entered the car.

    So, if seller genuinely did not know about the fault then he should ask me about the problem and share the costs of the repair but the seller is trying to wash his hands of the problem.
    Last edited by majnov; 16-04-2018 at 6:23 PM.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 16th Apr 18, 6:22 PM
    • 1,217 Posts
    • 833 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Yes, at that time. On the same day, I went to a car wash and I could not start the engine. I thought it might be a low battery in remote control as the message was shown while I entered the car.

    So, if seller genuinely did not know about the fault then he should ask me about the problem and share the costs of the repair but the seller is trying to wash of his hands from the problem.
    Originally posted by majnov

    If he didnít know why should he share the cost?
    • eschaton
    • By eschaton 16th Apr 18, 6:31 PM
    • 1,721 Posts
    • 1,465 Thanks
    eschaton
    Whether the seller knew or not it is impossible to prove unless the seller admits it. Which is unlikely.

    Time to move on, you drove the car away with no issues evident.
    • HHarry
    • By HHarry 16th Apr 18, 6:36 PM
    • 423 Posts
    • 275 Thanks
    HHarry
    Someone I know went to Small Claims after a car he bought needed a gearbox repair at £2k within months of buying it. It was also a private sale.

    His claim was very quickly thrown out (twice) when the Seller explained that he wasn't aware of a problem and wasn't an expert on cars.
    • Raxiel
    • By Raxiel 16th Apr 18, 9:18 PM
    • 650 Posts
    • 353 Thanks
    Raxiel
    The Ford Powershift transmission is notoriously unreliable, at that mileage it could potentially be on its third (warranted) clutch pack depending on how it was driven.

    Perhaps the seller knowingly sold a lemon, perhaps he genuinely thought it was running fine but wanted shot before it inevitably failed. Can't hold him responsible for an inherent design flaw.
    • EdGasketTheSecond
    • By EdGasketTheSecond 16th Apr 18, 9:38 PM
    • 525 Posts
    • 295 Thanks
    EdGasketTheSecond
    the seller described the car in a mint condition, drives good, etc.
    Originally posted by majnov
    oh dear, sounds like a dodgy dealer. I would never buy a car from someone who spouts 'mint condition' and 'drives good'; in the same category as 'nuttin wrong with it'; avoid.
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 16th Apr 18, 9:55 PM
    • 3,015 Posts
    • 4,094 Thanks
    George Michael
    So, if seller genuinely did not know about the fault then he should ask me about the problem and share the costs of the repair but the seller is trying to wash his hands of the problem.
    Originally posted by majnov
    If the seller genuinely didn't know about the fault then they have no obligation either legally or morally to pay a single penny towards the repair and even if they had full knowledge of the fault, you have to prove this.
    Simply thinking that they knew is no use whatsoever.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 17th Apr 18, 7:05 AM
    • 2,689 Posts
    • 1,932 Thanks
    Tarambor
    What are my rights as the private buyer?
    Originally posted by majnov
    Caveat Emptor.

    Could I take the seller to the small claims court to claim the repair cost? I informed the seller about the problem at the same date it developed a problem, the seller said he did not know anything about the problem but it is my car, sold as seen. I made a contract and I put in writing all visible marks on the body and the seller signed, which means that the fault was prior to the sale as this will not develop suddenly and the seller has hidden it.
    Private sale, you've no protection. The only thing you could claim against is if you specifically asked them a question and they lied.

    I already messaged the seller today, that I would like him to share the repair cost, otherwise, I am going to put a claim in a small claims court !!!8211; no answer so far.

    Thanks.
    The seller is following the same advice we'd give to a private seller on this forum when a buyer is wanting a refund or cost of repairs - ignore them.

    When you buy privately you have no rights that you do when you buy from a dealership. It is caveat emptor, buyer beware. You could waste your money putting in a small claims court claim but it will get nowhere.
    • majnov
    • By majnov 17th Apr 18, 9:49 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    majnov
    Caveat Emptor.


    Private sale, you've no protection. The only thing you could claim against is if you specifically asked them a question and they lied.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    He has done it once he was asked for any mechanical faults, you surely can explain that by lack of knowledge on any faults as he answered about "mint condition", etc.
    So every sale can go through the same scenario, "it was all ok till I sold it", hard to prove otherwise, only detailed knowledge regarding the fault that the problem developed way before and the car was driven with the fault and then sold.


    The seller is following the same advice we'd give to a private seller on this forum when a buyer is wanting a refund or cost of repairs - ignore them.

    When you buy privately you have no rights that you do when you buy from a dealership. It is caveat emptor, buyer beware. You could waste your money putting in a small claims court claim but it will get nowhere.
    Right, that is not helpful then as the position of the buyer is straight on the losing side.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 17th Apr 18, 10:01 AM
    • 9,877 Posts
    • 11,127 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    He has done it once he was asked for any mechanical faults, you surely can explain that by lack of knowledge on any faults as he answered about "mint condition", etc.
    So every sale can go through the same scenario, "it was all ok till I sold it", hard to prove otherwise, only detailed knowledge regarding the fault that the problem developed way before and the car was driven with the fault and then sold.

    Right, that is not helpful then as the position of the buyer is straight on the losing side.
    Originally posted by majnov
    Why isn't what Tarambor stated helpful? It states exactly what the legal situation is.
    From skim reading through the posts, every single responder has stated pretty much the same thing in that:

    When buying privately, you have far fewer rights than when buying from a dealer. This is why items sold privately will normally be far cheaper than buying from a trade seller.

    A seller must to the best of their knowledge, describe the goods correctly and they don't have to mention specific faults unless specifically asked.

    If you think that the seller lied, you have to prove this.

    However many times you keep posting asking the same questions or rehashing the same points, the answers will stay the same.
    • n217970
    • By n217970 17th Apr 18, 10:02 AM
    • 308 Posts
    • 259 Thanks
    n217970
    So every private sale can go through the same scenario, "it was all ok till I sold it", hard to prove otherwise
    Originally posted by majnov
    You choose to save money by buying privately. If you wanted some comeback you should have bought from a dealer for more money. You took a gamble and lost - although by the time you have changed the part over I would say you are still quids in unless you start chucking money away chasing the seller.
    • markudman
    • By markudman 17th Apr 18, 10:03 AM
    • 207 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    markudman
    Wow Brought a car with no MOT, (not road worthy until proved otherwise) and a cat D,
    this is very much buyer beware, no guarantee, but sold as seen is not a point of law anymore. see this link.
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Sold-as-seen-as-is-no-returns/10000000002394120/g.html
    Can you get the Fault history from the car IE:
    how many times the fault has occurred,
    when (date) the fault first Occurred, this can be the prove you need,
    and tell you if the fault started while you were driving it or before that.
    Not sure if IDS can do this, I have a lot of dealer Diag tools, but not IDS.
    Last edited by markudman; 17-04-2018 at 10:11 AM.
    We may not win by protesting, but if we donít protest we will lose.
    If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 17th Apr 18, 10:10 AM
    • 33,359 Posts
    • 28,235 Thanks
    custardy
    @GeorgeMichael Right. I do have messages through the app and SMS as the proof that the seller described the car in a mint condition while has been asked about any mechanical faults or warning lights.
    Originally posted by majnov
    and you bought a car with no warning lights and no noted faults?
    I once sold a car after it had been to the dealers for diagnostic work and replacements parts.
    It broke down the day after sale with an unrelated electronic fault.
    Buyer contacted me,I offered technical advice and that was the limit of my input.

    You say this fault cannot just happen. I would argue you will struggle to prove that.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 17th Apr 18, 10:52 AM
    • 6,984 Posts
    • 6,212 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Whilst it's possible they knew; it's also possible they didn't. They might never have driven in a way to trigger it, or it's been unused for a while. You Also test drive and we're happy when you paid.

    So you can ask, but the seller is perfectly entitled to ignore you or tell you to sod off.

    Your only option is to prove they were a dealer, but it doesn't sound like they are.

    At the end of the day you bought a cat d with no MOT. You're lucky that's all that's wrong with it.
    • Geodark
    • By Geodark 17th Apr 18, 1:01 PM
    • 776 Posts
    • 489 Thanks
    Geodark
    Faults can unfortunately happen at any point during a cars life time, and remember every fault must have had a "First Time" so yes it is possible for him to have sold you the car and the fault has developed after you have bought it.
    • bigisi
    • By bigisi 17th Apr 18, 1:04 PM
    • 122 Posts
    • 224 Thanks
    bigisi
    Faults can unfortunately happen at any point during a cars life time, and remember every fault must have had a "First Time" so yes it is possible for him to have sold you the car and the fault has developed after you have bought it.
    Originally posted by Geodark
    Something tells me this is going to be one of those OPs who won't accept that.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 17th Apr 18, 2:57 PM
    • 2,689 Posts
    • 1,932 Thanks
    Tarambor
    but sold as seen is not a point of law anymore. see this link.
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Sold-as-seen-as-is-no-returns/10000000002394120/g.html
    Originally posted by markudman
    It absolutely IS a point of law for PRIVATE SALES. It no longer applies to commercial sales to a private individual and hasn't for some time.

    If you actually READ THE CONTENTS of the link you posted you'd see in the FIRST LINE:

    "Many rogue traders use these terms when selling something that is duff, defective etc..."

    Traders, people selling as a business. Not private sellers.

    https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand-car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights

    You have fewer rights when you buy a used car from a private seller, and key parts of the Consumer Rights Act don't apply. For example, there is no legal requirement for a car to be of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose. If you're buying from a private seller, the onus is on you as the buyer to ask all the right questions before making the purchase. The seller doesn't have to volunteer extra information so, if you don't ask questions, you may not have the full picture of the car's history or be aware of any potential faults.
    Last edited by Tarambor; 17-04-2018 at 3:00 PM.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 17th Apr 18, 3:37 PM
    • 17,189 Posts
    • 15,496 Thanks
    AdrianC
    A quick google suggests that, even with the Cat D history, a more typical price would be around £4500.


    So, given that the legal comeback tempers rights by price, age and apparent condition, we're talking about a car that's 2/3 of the open market price.


    Sorry, but I think this is the price you pay for apparent "bargains"...
    • jimjames
    • By jimjames 17th Apr 18, 8:32 PM
    • 12,545 Posts
    • 11,178 Thanks
    jimjames
    So, if seller genuinely did not know about the fault then he should ask me about the problem and share the costs of the repair but the seller is trying to wash his hands of the problem.
    Originally posted by majnov
    If I sold a car that broke down afterwards I certainly wouldn't pay anything towards the repair. Private sale, your risk. Next time buy from a garage if you want a warranty
    Remember the saying: if it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is.
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