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  • FIRST POST
    • Kiaora73
    • By Kiaora73 16th Apr 18, 12:24 PM
    • 6Posts
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    Kiaora73
    Not paid for logging in time
    • #1
    • 16th Apr 18, 12:24 PM
    Not paid for logging in time 16th Apr 18 at 12:24 PM
    My employer asks that I log in to my computer before my contracted hours, so I am ready to start working as soon as my contracted hours start. Logging in to everything can take 5 to 10 mins every day.

    However this logging in period is unpaid.

    Should it be?
Page 2
    • Les79
    • By Les79 16th Apr 18, 6:54 PM
    • 368 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    Les79
    I used to work in a call center, initially as an agent and then as a supervisor. This sort of thing has never sat right with me to be honest.

    BUT, I quite often saw people make waves in this manner and it never ended well for them in the long run (though maybe they were just more inclined to making more waves). My attitude was, keep your head down and collect the monthly wage packet. Sure, they were probably doing me out of 10 mins per shift per month (~20 shifts a month = 3.3 hours or roughly £24 after taxes etc) but was that £24 really worth risking a job which was bringing in £1100+ a month?

    Not saying it is right, but gotta earn your crust somehow.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 16th Apr 18, 7:12 PM
    • 32,757 Posts
    • 19,705 Thanks
    getmore4less
    The key is they don't have to pay it just recognise it as working time.

    Overnight sleep ins were similar issue.

    Why the unions won't make stand on stuff like this is beyond me.

    All unions should over this like a rash.

    If they can't get the basics sorted where the law is on their side what use will they be negotiating wages.
    • Doshwaster
    • By Doshwaster 16th Apr 18, 9:42 PM
    • 4,932 Posts
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    Doshwaster
    I used to work in a call center, initially as an agent and then as a supervisor. This sort of thing has never sat right with me to be honest.

    BUT, I quite often saw people make waves in this manner and it never ended well for them in the long run (though maybe they were just more inclined to making more waves). My attitude was, keep your head down and collect the monthly wage packet. Sure, they were probably doing me out of 10 mins per shift per month (~20 shifts a month = 3.3 hours or roughly £24 after taxes etc) but was that £24 really worth risking a job which was bringing in £1100+ a month?

    Not saying it is right, but gotta earn your crust somehow.
    Originally posted by Les79
    Personally, being at my desk 10 minutes before my start time wouldn't bother me. Just sit there with a coffee and a bacon sarnie - but otherwise, it's easy enough to find 10 minutes to skive off during your shift to compensate.
    • scaredofdebt
    • By scaredofdebt 18th Apr 18, 10:50 AM
    • 1,100 Posts
    • 504 Thanks
    scaredofdebt
    If you are having to login to 5 or so systems they need to look at SSO / Single Sign On technology, it would save a lot of time and effort.

    But it sounds like the type of company that doesn't really care about its employees so won't invest the necessary time and money to do that.

    Do you also have to stay behind at the end of your shift if you are on a call? That used to annoy me when I worked in a call centre!
    Make £2018 in 2018 Challenge - Total to date £1,923
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 18th Apr 18, 8:24 PM
    • 38,901 Posts
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    Savvy_Sue
    Do you also have to stay behind at the end of your shift if you are on a call? That used to annoy me when I worked in a call centre!
    Originally posted by scaredofdebt
    Not half as much as it would annoy me, the customer, if you terminated the call before we'd finished doing whatever it was I was trying to do, because it was the end of your shift.

    The only time I've found that acceptable was when I was talking to my late and very deaf mother using Text Relay. It had been a long call, and the operator typing my replies to mum said that she was due to finish work and would we mind handing over to a new operator. No problem there, because the operator wasn't 'involved' in the conversation, just passing what I was saying on to Mum!
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    • Ja7188
    • By Ja7188 18th Apr 18, 8:35 PM
    • 188 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    Ja7188
    Couldn't you just start the logging in process ten minutes before you're due to start and then use that time to make yourself a coffee?
    • Mulder00
    • By Mulder00 18th Apr 18, 9:53 PM
    • 488 Posts
    • 431 Thanks
    Mulder00
    I would just make up the time with a longer break where it wasn't visible if it really bother me, rather than make a big fuss about it.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 18th Apr 18, 10:13 PM
    • 1,598 Posts
    • 932 Thanks
    boo_star
    I would just make up the time with a longer break where it wasn't visible if it really bother me, rather than make a big fuss about it.
    Originally posted by Mulder00
    The time they log out/in would be recorded by the computer system.

    There’s not much “reduced visibility” nowadays.
    • Doshwaster
    • By Doshwaster 19th Apr 18, 9:24 AM
    • 4,932 Posts
    • 4,022 Thanks
    Doshwaster
    Do you also have to stay behind at the end of your shift if you are on a call? That used to annoy me when I worked in a call centre!
    Originally posted by scaredofdebt
    When I worked in a call centre we would all try to avoid picking up a call in the last few minutes of a shift just in case it was a "long one" and leave the growing call queue for the incoming shift to deal with.
    • bertiewhite
    • By bertiewhite 19th Apr 18, 10:05 AM
    • 1,198 Posts
    • 1,342 Thanks
    bertiewhite
    Logging in to everything can take 5 to 10 mins every day.
    Originally posted by Kiaora73
    Or 3 minutes maybe?

    Being the sort of person I am, I think I'd start having problems with logging in so that even though I'd logged in 5 minutes before the start of my shift, I'd still be logging in 20 minutes later
    • Les79
    • By Les79 19th Apr 18, 12:13 PM
    • 368 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    Les79
    Or 3 minutes maybe?

    Being the sort of person I am, I think I'd start having problems with logging in so that even though I'd logged in 5 minutes before the start of my shift, I'd still be logging in 20 minutes later
    Originally posted by bertiewhite
    A fair number of people used to do that.

    One person was silly and ended up getting the sack due to it, but it was generally hard to prove for the most part (so the odd one you could get away with).

    The person who got sacked had forgotten their password about 8 times within a month (the passwords reset once a month) which was 30-60mins of downtime each time. They sort of shot themselves in the foot by being overheard by a manager about intentionally putting in the wrong password to lock their account. Some agents can put in a lot of though and effort into AVOIDING work which, had they just focused that energy on the WORK, could potentially get them moving on within the company.

    There were other ways of subtly getting the agents back, though, not that I partook in anything like that (couldn't be bothered!). You may, for example, find yourself on an unusually large number of early or late shifts when the next schedule of rotas are released. Or your lunch time finishing just before the canteen starts serving lunch food, or the boss being inflexible when you need some time off for an appointment etc.

    It is effectively just like a playground! If you go there to play games then you'll probably get caught up in the whole game-playing scenario. As much as I wanted to play games at times as well, I did try and be the bigger person in there and people like you "I'd still be logging in 20 mins later" would be given *some* leeway before the disciplinary process kicked in.

    To be fair, I speculate about subtle ways of getting people back but in truth I haven't actually seen any boss do that sort of stuff! For the most part all of the bosses (including me) haven't been spiteful towards any agent in this manner, but I am hypothesizing about how some small-minded managers may respond!
    Last edited by Les79; 19-04-2018 at 12:16 PM.
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 19th Apr 18, 8:42 PM
    • 4,497 Posts
    • 5,038 Thanks
    robatwork
    How we deal with this scenario is:

    If you're contracted for 9-5 then you're expected to be at your desk prepared and ready to work at 9.

    That means you don't come in at 9 and then make tea, or change your shoes or catch up on last night's Corrie. You're free to come in 5 or 10 mins before if you want to do that.

    However logging into a work system would count as work that starts at 9.

    Most staff will come in a few mins early, turn their PC on if it's off and then make a drink, put their lunch in the fridge, get water etc. then be back at their desk in time to start.

    Some, generally the younger ones, come in with 30 seconds to spare and flap around getting ready. No idea why they don't de-stress themselves a bit and leave home just a few minutes earlier. When we discuss with them, it's normally "I couldn't get out of bed".
    • dippy3103
    • By dippy3103 19th Apr 18, 9:15 PM
    • 1,834 Posts
    • 2,678 Thanks
    dippy3103
    Why are the union earning their dues and taking this forward?
    • HurdyGurdy
    • By HurdyGurdy 21st Apr 18, 9:09 AM
    • 863 Posts
    • 3,097 Thanks
    HurdyGurdy
    This is quite interesting to me. It's not been raised as an issue - yet!

    But I have recently changed my hours to 7am to 3pm. However, the building doesn't open until 6.55am, so I physically cannot be at my desk and ready for work by 7am, as I have to get to my desk, unlock my drawer (a feat in itself as the lock is dodgy) get my laptop out, connect it up, switch it on, let it get ready.

    Then log into the various applications via two stage security. So in reality it's probably 7.10am before I can start work.

    In actual fact, it suits my department for me to be in first thing, so I don't think my line manager(s) would make something of this. But I wonder if HR would, if they got wind of it.

    I don't know if I could argue that I never take either of the 2x10 minute breaks that I am entitled to - because that's my choice not to, and I don't know if that could therefore be offset against the late start.

    Before changing hours, we were always expected to be "at your desks ready to start work" at office opening hours. Which I guess did mean we were giving some time for free, to be set up ready. No one ever grumbled about it - maybe they never thought of it!
    • SingleSue
    • By SingleSue 21st Apr 18, 9:30 AM
    • 10,265 Posts
    • 57,917 Thanks
    SingleSue
    I've always arrived at least 10 mins before my start time, purely because it gives me time to go to the loo, make a drink and get everything up and running on the systems ready to start the day whilst doing so and all in a very relaxed fashion.

    I hate having to do a rush start, I much prefer taking my own sweet time getting myself settled instead of being stressed.
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    • Energize
    • By Energize 21st Apr 18, 2:49 PM
    • 451 Posts
    • 201 Thanks
    Energize
    You should be "ready for work" at contracted time
    Originally posted by Browntoa
    "Ready for work" means at your desk, system problems are the employers issue not the employees. At what arbitrary length of time would you draw the line? 10mins, 30mins, 1 hour?

    I always treat login time as work time, if my employer wants me to work an extra 1hr each week waiting for my pc to login I expect to be paid for it at my hourly rate.
    • jjj1980
    • By jjj1980 21st Apr 18, 3:28 PM
    • 514 Posts
    • 1,065 Thanks
    jjj1980
    I worked many years in a call-centre, both as frontline and management. Staff were expected to be able to take their first call at their start time, which meant they had to have all systems logged in and ready. This meant being at your desk 5-10 before your start time to get logged in. They were also expected to be available right up until their finish time, so if a call came in at 5.59pm and they finished at 6pm, they had to either stay to take the call or answer it and say they were just going to transfer them to an available operator. Telephone login and logout times were very strictly monitored and all calls recorded and listened to later


    It was a very strict environment but this was always explained in interviews and inductions and made very clear that non-compliance would end in discipline and dismissal. In all my time there, there was only a very small number of cases where any action had to be taken as 99% of the staff had no issues with it. The office was mainly made up of people with very long term service.


    Where I work now, some staff are very lax in turning up to the office at their start time then spending 20 odd minutes making a drink, visiting the loo etc. Then they wonder why they constantly getting taken aside to be spoken to about their punctuality! It's very relaxed office but some just take the mick.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 21st Apr 18, 3:37 PM
    • 32,757 Posts
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    getmore4less
    If people are completing all their work within their contracted hours and have time to take it easy then what's the problem?

    Rather than moaning at people for time keeping, tea/pee breaks give them more work to do.

    minute pinching is loosing sight of the real objective to get the job done
    • RichardD1970
    • By RichardD1970 21st Apr 18, 3:53 PM
    • 3,005 Posts
    • 4,468 Thanks
    RichardD1970
    I don't see the problem.

    Where I work (manufacturing environment) you are expected to be at your station, with all the correct PPE on, ready to go on the bell. There is even a "2 minute warning" bell which sounds before shift start and towards the end of every beak.

    If you are not there ready you can be disciplined.

    All sanctioned by the Union.
    • jimbo747
    • By jimbo747 22nd Apr 18, 10:01 PM
    • 522 Posts
    • 1,420 Thanks
    jimbo747
    If people are completing all their work within their contracted hours and have time to take it easy then what's the problem?

    Rather than moaning at people for time keeping, tea/pee breaks give them more work to do.

    minute pinching is loosing sight of the real objective to get the job done
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    That's the approach my company goes for. If someone wants to come in 20 minutes late, have a 2 hour lunch break or work from home/cafe/the pub they can, as long as they get done what I expect of them.

    Then days when we're really busy they're more than willing to stay a few hours late to get something done. I wouldn't want to work in an environment where every minute is logged and someone counting how many times I go for a dump, so I don't expect it of my staff.
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