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  • FIRST POST
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 1:23 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 17Thanks
    Yoooz
    Parking ticket from APCOA at Luton Airport
    • #1
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:23 PM
    Parking ticket from APCOA at Luton Airport 15th Apr 18 at 1:23 PM
    Hi everyone,

    I've just received a PCN from APCOA for alleged contravention of dropping off or picking up outside designated areas on the approach to Luton Airport.

    I've gone through the newbies thread and found a lot of useful information on how to and on what grounds to appeal the PCN but none of the cases was the same as mine.

    Someone has dropped a friend to the airport. On the approach, before the tunnel (if anyone is familiar with the area), which is about 300-400 yards from the airport there was a stationary traffic and they were queuing there for a a couple of minutes when my friend decided to get off the car and walk as it would take at least another 20-30 mins in that queue to get to the drop off area and he could have missed the flight. I was shocked to receive this PCN as the keeper of the vehicle as from what I know they have not purposely stopped or park the car in the lay bay to drop him off. It was only because of the traffic and they were behind a number of cars on the main road.

    The pictures show no more than my car queuing in the stationery traffic. I found the road signs from that road on google maps, that tells you not to stop to drop people off, but how could they not stop when there's a stationery traffic ahead of them? Isn't that a breach of human rights when they not allowing anyone out of the car when on the road? Their point might have been valid if the car was actually in their car park or on the side of the road but in a queue?

    Also another thing worth mentioning is the date this occurred: 30/03, notice issued 13/04, I received it 14/04. Not sure if there's a ground to appeal as I received it on 15th day but it was issued on 14th day so does POFA 2012 apply in this scenario as the PCN hasn't arrived by day 14?
    They wrote ''as we don't know the name of the driver we request that you either pay the full amount outstanding or if you were not the driver at the time provide us with the name and their address and pass this notice onto them''.

    In the newbies thread it says ''If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket''. Is that what the case? as they haven't mentioned POFA 2012, which leads me to think that I could apply this hint:
    ''Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA.

    On the signs it says ''private road'' so not sure if I could use the bylaws ground in the appeal.
    They have not included the contract/permission from the landlord though.

    I would be really grateful if anyone could help me with this.

    I tried posting links to the pictures of the PCN and the road signs but as a new user can't do that.

    Many thanks in advance for any help
    Last edited by Yoooz; 15-04-2018 at 5:36 PM.
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 18, 1:34 PM
    • 38,011 Posts
    • 22,107 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:34 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:34 PM

    I've gone through the newbies thread and found a lot of useful information on how to and on what grounds to appeal the PCN but none of the cases was the same as mine.
    Originally posted by Yoooz

    Regarding the FAQ - read the second FAQ (#1) regarding circs not matching yours!
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 1:49 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Yoooz
    • #3
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:49 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:49 PM
    Hi Quentin,

    Sorry if I've done something wrong but I'm not very good when it comes to forums and posts/threads.
    In the FAQ it says: ''PLEASE ONLY START A NEW THREAD IF YOUR QUESTION IS NOT ANSWERED HERE'' and I really read through number of posts and threads for 2.5 hrs today but could not find the answer to my main question, which is: can I get a PCN because someone let people out of my car when queuing in the stationery traffic on the road?
    I have indeed found a lot of answers to other questions I initially had and want to say a big thank you to all those that posted all that information in this forum.
    I got a PCN appeal nearly ready in my head, just needed a clarification with couple of thins.
    Last edited by Yoooz; 15-04-2018 at 5:37 PM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 18, 1:52 PM
    • 38,011 Posts
    • 22,107 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #4
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:52 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:52 PM
    could not find the answer to my main question, which is: can I get a PCN for letting people out of the car when queuing in the stationery traffic on the road? ..........

    I got a PCN appeal nearly ready in my head, just needed a clarification with couple of thins.
    Originally posted by Yoooz
    You got one! So you know the answer to your question


    Why aren't you using the appeal template in the FAQ?
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 1:59 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Yoooz
    • #5
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:59 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Apr 18, 1:59 PM
    Haha. That was good I answered my own question It should have read Is it legal rather than can I.
    I will use the template then and see what their reply to that is.
    Thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Apr 18, 2:05 PM
    • 20,410 Posts
    • 25,768 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:05 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:05 PM
    it will be a refusal and a popla code, so read up on that stage next, plus read recent similar threads about APCOA, ESPECIALLY ones with POPLA APPEALS in them

    its not relevant land so POFA2012 does not apply and never did apply
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 15th Apr 18, 2:35 PM
    • 3,455 Posts
    • 5,063 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:35 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:35 PM
    What was the exact contravention claimed on the notice, i.e. the precise wording? Do not precis or reword, just type it letter for letter (apologies if this sounds patronising, but so many just can't help themselves but embellish re-interpret what the notice says).

    The signs, I believe, talk about No Stopping (not that you can read them), not about not dropping off.
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 2:43 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Yoooz
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:43 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:43 PM
    I'll read through the POPLA appeal posts next. Thank you

    It is ''for the alleged contravention of dropping off or picking up outside of designated areas at London Luton Airport Central Terminal Area''.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 18, 2:48 PM
    • 11,012 Posts
    • 10,981 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:48 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:48 PM
    If the car was stopped in a traffic jam, then passengers have every right to get out and walk, how could a driver prevent them, especially if, by not doing so, they could miss a flight.

    If this went in front of a judge it would be thrown out sharpish imo. It is neither dropping off, stopping, nor parking. The PPC is displaying a total lack of common sense, perhaps trying to claim for a penalty. Personally, I would complain to the airline, the CAA, your local paper, Facebook, and Trading Standard. .

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 15-04-2018 at 3:10 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • adonis
    • By adonis 15th Apr 18, 2:50 PM
    • 811 Posts
    • 761 Thanks
    adonis
    I have had passengers get out when I am stopped at a zebra crossing, what can you do if they say I will get out here and open the door.
    no tickets yet.

    But I am half expecting one from dropping someone off at a train station and realised it was a taxi rank when they was halfway out of the car,
    worn out markings, tiny writing on the sign, you guys know the score,
    I won't name the station but will let you know if if I do get a ticket.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 15th Apr 18, 3:37 PM
    • 2,125 Posts
    • 2,844 Thanks
    Castle

    Also another thing worth mentioning is the date this occurred: 30/03, notice issued 13/04, I received it 14/04. Not sure if there's a ground to appeal as I received it on 15th day but it was issued on 14th day so does POFA 2012 apply in this scenario as the PCN hasn't arrived by day 14?
    Originally posted by Yoooz
    A NTK dated, (Friday), 13th April will be deemed to have arrived two working days later... so on (Tuesday) 17th April, which is day 18 and too late for POFA even if it was relevant land.
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 4:05 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Yoooz
    Ok. So I'll base on the POFA 2012 as the NTK received after 14 days and general things mentioned in the template.
    Will also mention not parked as it's Parking Charge Notice and can't be used when queuing up in traffic, which can't be considered parked. Thanks everyone for your help. I will post my draft appeal when ready and hope for your feedback if anything will not be relevant. Many thanks once again.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 18, 4:14 PM
    • 38,011 Posts
    • 22,107 Thanks
    Quentin
    As you been advised Pofa is irrelevant here

    See #6
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 4:18 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Yoooz
    I see. Do they not have any time frames then?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 18, 4:35 PM
    • 38,011 Posts
    • 22,107 Thanks
    Quentin
    You misunderstand


    POFA is irrelevant to your pcn as advised in #6 above!
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 15th Apr 18, 4:55 PM
    • 10,705 Posts
    • 10,088 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    You misunderstand


    POFA is irrelevant to your pcn as advised in #6 above!
    Originally posted by Quentin
    Quentin is correct, but.....................

    they want to use POFA to pass liability onto the keeper (even though it is not land covered by POFA), but play them at their game saying the driver has not been established and the only way the registered keeper could be liable under POFA is if they stuck to the POFA timescales. They have failed to do that, so you, as keeper, can not be held liable and you are not able to identify the driver.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Apr 18, 4:56 PM
    • 20,410 Posts
    • 25,768 Thanks
    Redx
    read this recent one

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5801883

    you can crib from their appeal too, but there are some spelling mistakes in it where they used the word APOCA instead of APCOA, so proof read it as well as adapting it slightly

    if a driver has not been divulged (dobbed in) then a keeper cannot be held liable due to the fact that POFA2012 is not used and so as far as a keeper is concerned it doesnt matter what happened on the day

    the short version is as follows

    the driver will not be named and as KEEPER I have no responsibility so FRO

    the fact that they also failed POFA2012 on timescales is concrete proof that a keeper is not responsible or liable
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 5:03 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Yoooz
    The signs displayed on that road leading to the airport say ''private road'' that's why I assumed that POFA 2012 can be used in this instance. In fact I could use that sign against them if I understand it correctly. I tried posting the pic of the signs but haven't got enough privileges on this forum to do so. Does it only apply on a private land though?
    Quentin is POFA 2012 not relevant on any land other than private? I'm sorry but trying to get my head around this:/
    • Yoooz
    • By Yoooz 15th Apr 18, 5:04 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Yoooz
    Thanks Redx. I'll study that thread.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 18, 5:12 PM
    • 38,011 Posts
    • 22,107 Thanks
    Quentin
    Thanks Redx. I'll study that thread.
    Originally posted by Yoooz
    Study just #12 in that thread and stop overthinking this!


    (But do edit your posts to remove details of who was driving - the ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you)
    Last edited by Quentin; 15-04-2018 at 5:14 PM.
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