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  • FIRST POST
    • Xchang
    • By Xchang 14th Apr 18, 2:12 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Xchang
    Please help to get a court order-non party
    • #1
    • 14th Apr 18, 2:12 PM
    Please help to get a court order-non party 14th Apr 18 at 2:12 PM
    Hi all,

    I am posting this to get help and great advice with regard to a court order to obtain evidences as Fraud happened to my phone account.

    Police team is investigating the case . They arrested a Suspect too. The police team requested evidences to implicate suspect and put the matter before court .

    When all these evidences such as Call Recordings and mail contacts which perpetrator allegedly had with the phone company were requested from the company , they told me to get a Court Order and submit so that they will produce all evidences requested.

    So Please let me know the correct 'Application Form' to apply for getting a Court Order to make the phone company to produce necessary evidences they hold to me.

    Should I apply for Norwich Pharmacal Order in this case ?

    If so , please tell me can I apply myself ?

    Which is the correct Court Form for this NPO order - N208 or N244 or any other ?

    It would be a great help and I will be grateful for all who advise.
Page 1
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 14th Apr 18, 2:56 PM
    • 9,002 Posts
    • 6,737 Thanks
    pmduk
    • #2
    • 14th Apr 18, 2:56 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Apr 18, 2:56 PM
    Usually, the police have a liaison office within phone companies to easily acquire this information themselves. This ensures only officers with the correct need can acquire information.

    Why are they asking you to gather their evidence? If your investigating officer cannot access the evidence he wants he needs to escalate it to the approporiate ranked officer.
    • Jon 01
    • By Jon 01 14th Apr 18, 4:04 PM
    • 5,144 Posts
    • 1,667 Thanks
    Jon 01
    • #3
    • 14th Apr 18, 4:04 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Apr 18, 4:04 PM
    I've never heard of the customer being asked to get this?

    As pmduk says. every network has a liaison dept there just get get this kind of info for the police (no one else).
    I'd double check, because I'd have thought you would have hit dpa issues even trying to such info from the network?
    • mobilejunkie
    • By mobilejunkie 14th Apr 18, 5:18 PM
    • 7,854 Posts
    • 2,574 Thanks
    mobilejunkie
    • #4
    • 14th Apr 18, 5:18 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Apr 18, 5:18 PM
    Sounds like the police fobbing you off. They don't bother investigating much nowadays unless there's some glory in it for them.
    • Xchang
    • By Xchang 14th Apr 18, 8:42 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Xchang
    • #5
    • 14th Apr 18, 8:42 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Apr 18, 8:42 PM
    Thank you very much for all who replied. I am now briefing some points for consideration with regard to Police action.

    Its around 06 months since I reported this Fraud to police via action fraud . Then Police had statement from me to investigate. Upon my complaint they arrested suspect and interviewed and then released as Suspect denied Fraud. Police said told me no evidence to continue . I many more times told them by mails and phone calls to get the evidences from the Mobile company such as mails, calls to prove the case giving all the details of mobile company contacts .

    But Police ddnt do instead they after months told me to get all these evidences myself and send to them to decide prosecution. You know when I sent mails or letters I ddnt even got a reply from Police who is handling my case. I dont know why .

    And then I applied SAR to get all evidences from the mobile company. After a month , They sent me some Notes with some details But denied sending me the Calls recordings and some mails which they said as those calls were not made by me and it doesnt come under my personal datails so that they cant disclose to me. .

    Mobile company informed me that '' We have located a number calls but we are currently unable to provide you with a copy of these due to the fact you were not the person making the call(s) in question. The information that you are seeking relates to a third party and although they were purporting to be you a copy of these calls does not constitute your personal data as defined by the Data Protection Act 1998.''

    Further , they told me If Police requested Mobile company directly then they would produce to the police team . So I told Police to request the company and waited . I was struggling to contact the Police handling my case . May be he was busy or backlog of inquiries..!! I dont know. Unfortunately the Police contacted me nearly after 02 months , saying that the Mobile company's Police Disclosure Team has required a court order to produce all evidences to the police.

    When I contact the mobile company inquiring about this court order they told me that '' We will not be able to supply the information without a court order, normally when the police request information from us it is completed using RIPA, Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, your case was discussed and did not fall into these criteria.As your case was classified as Interception this would be outside our remit to supply such information without a court order.''

    Now I am really in a miserable situation. If I can do myself to get this court order I will . Because I find difficulties to hire a Solicitor as I am having very very low income . Please help..
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 14th Apr 18, 9:00 PM
    • 9,002 Posts
    • 6,737 Thanks
    pmduk
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 18, 9:00 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 18, 9:00 PM
    Then you need to get the police to use their RIPA powers to request this information.

    I'm not a lawyer, But I don't believe RIPA enable citizens to obtain this information, it's an act regulating the powers of Authorities to investigate situations.
    • Jon 01
    • By Jon 01 15th Apr 18, 10:18 AM
    • 5,144 Posts
    • 1,667 Thanks
    Jon 01
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 18, 10:18 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 18, 10:18 AM

    Mobile company informed me that '' We have located a number calls but we are currently unable to provide you with a copy of these due to the fact you were not the person making the call(s) in question. The information that you are seeking relates to a third party and although they were purporting to be you a copy of these calls does not constitute your personal data as defined by the Data Protection Act 1998.''
    Originally posted by Xchang
    That's the issue you have. As far as I'm aware (and I worked for 10 years as a fraud investigator with one of the networks), there are only two ways to get that information.

    It's part of a police investigation and is requested by the police.

    It's part of an ongoing court case and the information has been requested by a lawyer with paperwork supplied by the court.

    Trying to get a court order as a private individual will not over ride the DPA, the court wouldn't issue you with the order.

    If the police won't move forward then, as far as I can see, your only recourse would be to take private legal action. But you'd need to take legal advice as to if that would have a chance of success...

    If you have a law center near you, try them. They provide free legal advice.
    • JJ Egan
    • By JJ Egan 15th Apr 18, 11:18 AM
    • 10,954 Posts
    • 4,698 Thanks
    JJ Egan
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 18, 11:18 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 18, 11:18 AM
    As above you need legal advice .
    But what is the cost of this fraud and is it worth pursuing .
    • Xchang
    • By Xchang 27th Apr 18, 11:52 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Xchang
    • #9
    • 27th Apr 18, 11:52 AM
    • #9
    • 27th Apr 18, 11:52 AM
    Thanks for all replies and advice. Its cost around 1300 / = . The foremost reason to pursue this case is that I need Justice including punishment for the Fraudster and compensation for me. Police asked my permission to publish this case in media too.

    As I got some advice from a solicitor , I applied for this order using N244 - under CPR 31.12 , with relevant information which relate to the evidences hold by the mobile company. I dont know whether Judge will issue or not. I applied in the county court. As its sought before proceedings , no claim No is to put in the form. only name and address of Respondent ( mobile company )..

    advice please ..
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 27th Apr 18, 12:12 PM
    • 9,002 Posts
    • 6,737 Thanks
    pmduk
    Personally, I think you've received poor advice from your solicitor as I can't see an order being granted.

    Are you sure your solicitor is qualified?
    • JJ Egan
    • By JJ Egan 27th Apr 18, 12:13 PM
    • 10,954 Posts
    • 4,698 Thanks
    JJ Egan
    You need legal advice not advice from users of a forum who are not legal experts .
    • Xchang
    • By Xchang 13th May 18, 7:44 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Xchang
    I am again thankful to all you those who advised me for my problems. I contacted Police and Mobile co and explained in details about what is interception in my case. After weeks a new officer from Mobile co told me and sent mail apologising for the incorrect / wrong advice and information given by the one who handled my inquiries . Now they said No need for a court order to disclose these evidences. This is what they said '' the Police can send a request to Mobile co Disclosure police team under Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) request and the copy call can only be provided once in receipt of a production order from the police SPOC.''

    If Police make sure that the alledged suspect is to be implicated upon identifying voice and other email contacts suspect had with the mobile co, then they will produce a case before a judge. As its a criminal case,
    Can I ask the Judge upon decides Frausdster is guilty, then can I ask the Judge to make Fraudster to pay a compensation to crime victim - me ?
    What would be the punishement for the Fraudster - jail for some days ? or just release him giving a warning ?

    I will be very much grateful for all your replies and advice.
    • Jon 01
    • By Jon 01 13th May 18, 9:00 AM
    • 5,144 Posts
    • 1,667 Thanks
    Jon 01
    I am again thankful to all you those who advised me for my problems. I contacted Police and Mobile co and explained in details about what is interception in my case. After weeks a new officer from Mobile co told me and sent mail apologising for the incorrect / wrong advice and information given by the one who handled my inquiries . Now they said No need for a court order to disclose these evidences. This is what they said '' the Police can send a request to Mobile co Disclosure police team under Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) request and the copy call can only be provided once in receipt of a production order from the police SPOC.''

    If Police make sure that the alledged suspect is to be implicated upon identifying voice and other email contacts suspect had with the mobile co, then they will produce a case before a judge. As its a criminal case,
    Can I ask the Judge upon decides Frausdster is guilty, then can I ask the Judge to make Fraudster to pay a compensation to crime victim - me ?
    What would be the punishement for the Fraudster - jail for some days ? or just release him giving a warning ?

    I will be very much grateful for all your replies and advice.
    Originally posted by Xchang
    The best advice you've been given is from JJ in the replay above this.

    The info in you post says that the police will put the details before a judge. As I understand that situation (and I've been out of this area for a while)means the judge will decide if there is enough evidence to move the matter forward. It's not a hearing and you won't be invited to attend and the judge on his own will not ( and can not) find anyone guilty or not, that is for the court to decide.

    So, after that, the case will either be sent for a hearing, or if the judge feels that what he's heard isn't enough to get a conviction the case will be dropped.

    But again, you need to get proper legal advice.
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 13th May 18, 11:12 AM
    • 9,002 Posts
    • 6,737 Thanks
    pmduk
    OP, Nobody on this forum can add any further advice to you. You need a lawyer you've been advised this several times now, nothing is going to change this advice I'm afraid.
    • gycraig
    • By gycraig 15th May 18, 8:19 AM
    • 469 Posts
    • 371 Thanks
    gycraig
    Are they charging you for the calls used in the fraud ? Seems a bit cheeky to charge you for calls that they won!!!8217;t show you
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