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  • FIRST POST
    • Ricbob
    • By Ricbob 14th Apr 18, 12:18 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Ricbob
    BW legal county court help
    • #1
    • 14th Apr 18, 12:18 PM
    BW legal county court help 14th Apr 18 at 12:18 PM
    Hello all,
    first i must admit i have only just come across this forum and everything you hear now is/was me blagging it! yes i know stupid and i may have just stuffed my chances.

    so my issues:-
    Long story short, got a (pcn) parking charge notice from VSC in a private car park. i honestly did not know i was in an official car park in the first place and so my desire to defend the charge.

    I submitted my defense through MCOL and now have the 'Notice of proposed allocation to the small claims track' letter to deal with.

    Im hoping i get an opportunity to develop me defense as i wrote and submitted before coming across the help available here, and now to be honest my defense looks weak, see below.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The reasons i wish to contest the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) are
    as follows;-

    I do not and have never admitted to being the driver of the
    vehicle detailed in the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued on
    24/07/2016 at Broomhill Permit Area, however i have been pursued
    as such.

    I have on several occasions requested the photographs taken that
    day as indicated on the original PCN. The most recent request was
    on February 28th 2018 by email, this correspondence was in
    reference to ‘LETTER OF CLAIM’ that had a deadline of March 1st
    2018. I made it clear at this time i wished to appeal the PCN and
    would require the photos for my defence. No reference has ever
    been made to this request and no photographs have ever been
    supplied.

    On March 5th 2018 i received an email from V@bwlegal.co.uk, This
    seemed like a automatically generated email requesting personal
    information Bwlegal already held on me. Despite this Auto email
    taking 5 calendar days to arrive, i intended to respond. However
    only a few days later on March 8th, i received the Claim Form from
    County Court Business Center, Northampton, Issue Date march 7th.

    Upon entering the space behind the Broomhill shopping complex you
    are presented with a sign (see image 2). This sign displays ‘Car
    Park’ and an arrow pointing up a ramp. The vehicle was parked on
    the lower level to the right of the misleading sign (location
    marked by star on image 1, photo of sign - image 2).

    The location of the vehicle when ‘charged’ is unmarked, that is to
    say there are no parking bay lines, nothing to indicate that it is
    a designated parking area and perhaps nothing more than an
    unofficial loading/unloading area for the shops. Given the Parking
    Charge Notice was issued on a Sunday it could be assumed this area
    was devoid of activity and free. (see Image 3 & image 4)


    On the lower level there is no ‘pay and display’ ticket machine,
    another reasonable indicator that the lower area is not an
    official car park and not an area covered by the parking contract.
    It is for these above reasons i believe the PCN unlawful and
    unenforceable.

    In summary

    The car park is private land and it is therefore a contractual
    matter between the landowner and the driver as to the right to
    park on the land.

    The landowner may specify the terms upon which an individual may
    park on their land. For those terms to be binding, they must be
    validly incorporated into the contract.

    To be validly incorporated, the terms must be clear and visible.
    Terms were on the sign pointing up the ramp leading to obvious car
    park on the upper level, however no other signs were noticed
    stating that a charge was payable to specifically, the lower
    level. Additionally no marked parking bays or ‘pay and display’
    machine indicate a lack of formal or standardized layout. As such,
    the landowner has failed to validly incorporate the terms.

    As the terms are not validly incorporated, the landowner cannot
    rely on them to levy a parking charge notice.

    If, which is denied, the terms were validly incorporated, then the
    landowner should only be able to recover it's loss. The loss is
    the cost of parking.


    Thank You
    (name)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    any help on where i can go from here or even advice on how i conduct myself in court would be great. im fully aware i may have stuffed this up and im prepared to pay up if/when i loose.

    any questions please fire away.

    Thank you
    Ricbob
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Apr 18, 12:23 PM
    • 19,239 Posts
    • 24,440 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 14th Apr 18, 12:23 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Apr 18, 12:23 PM
    that appears to bemore like a WS which comes further down this process in the DQ stage

    a defence is based on legal arguments , so see post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread , as the defence has already been submitted it is too late to alter it or develop it UNLESS you pay a lot of money to do so

    your evidence and WS need to be worked on and you may be able to develop those in order to try and win this, but you cannot just develop your defence , it is what it was on the day of submission, which to me looks nothing like a legal defence
    Last edited by Redx; 14-04-2018 at 12:56 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Apr 18, 12:39 PM
    • 9,997 Posts
    • 9,812 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 14th Apr 18, 12:39 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Apr 18, 12:39 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Ricbob
    • By Ricbob 15th Apr 18, 2:28 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ricbob
    • #4
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:28 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Apr 18, 2:28 PM
    OK so i guess the best i can do for now is get a good witness statement going, Ive had a look at some in the newbie thread but its difficult to see which applies to my situation.
    Other WS state case law that i know nothing about and would not feel confident talking at in court. not sure what to do here to be honest.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Apr 18, 6:14 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,260 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #5
    • 15th Apr 18, 6:14 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Apr 18, 6:14 PM
    No one knows them to start with. What you should do is your homework - read what those cases are and why they're relevant

    Your ws is YOUR WS. There is no template, because it is a statement of the FACTS REKEVANT to your case. No one else's.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Apr 18, 2:22 AM
    • 61,515 Posts
    • 74,398 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 16th Apr 18, 2:22 AM
    • #6
    • 16th Apr 18, 2:22 AM
    now to be honest my defense looks weak,
    Luckily, BW Legal claims are weaker!

    Your defence is not bad, and is all about signage (the main point in most defences in fact - NO CONTRACT AGREED TO PAY £100) so at WS stage all you do is put together proof of the lack of signs/lack of clarity that you talked about in the defence.

    Look again at the examples of the WS in the NEWBIES thread, all you do is copy the style, and see how the evidence photos will be presented with the WS, by numbering them like in the examples I've linked there.

    Don't be daunted by case law. EVERY poster here who fights these, is a no legal person like you. And 99% of them win in court!

    So, read and look at the WS style and how to show evidence. It goes in a ring binder/folder to the court with a contents page, all pages numbered, and all evidence numbered and referred to as you talk through the WS.

    But TBH if you read some examples, you will soon see that! Stop thinking the other WS as linked in the NEWBIES thread are too clever or legalese, just read them and learn from them. If you feel you have already admitted to being the driver in previous submissions, of course you must be the driver in the WS (and not copy anything from other ones about POFA/no keeper liability, if that ship has sailed, as it often has).

    Show us your draft WS.

    And (urgently, because evidence MUST be filed with the WS, well before the hearing) go and get video evidence, dashcam (or a passenger holding a mobile phone ad recording the view from entrance to parking space).

    And/or lots of photos that do NOT show signs...nothing clear, no close ups of signs. Show us what you have.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-04-2018 at 2:25 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ricbob
    • By Ricbob 18th Apr 18, 5:52 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ricbob
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 18, 5:52 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 18, 5:52 PM
    Hello again, thank you all for your help so far and expect to see my WS in the next day or two.

    Today (18/4/18) i received the BW Legal copy of the Directions questionnaire (small claims track). In section 'D3 Witnesses' they answered TBC, can they do this? im presuming i have to declare my witnesses, why not them?

    Thanks
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 18th Apr 18, 6:19 PM
    • 3,268 Posts
    • 5,476 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 18, 6:19 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 18, 6:19 PM
    why not them
    Yes they do have to but as they only send a rent-a-mouth there will only be one from the other side. You don't have to declare how many witness statements you can produce, only the actual witnesses on the day. Helps them decide the size of court.

    The DQ is only questions with regards to scheduling and court use. Just make sure you put down your holidays / lack of availability.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Ricbob
    • By Ricbob 18th Apr 18, 8:49 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ricbob
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 18, 8:49 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 18, 8:49 PM
    Going through some WS and SA now and a common point is that there is some issues with the contract between the landowner and the parking company.

    I have not been given at anytime said contract, should i ask for this now or wait to see if it is in the court bundle?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Apr 18, 10:13 PM
    • 61,515 Posts
    • 74,398 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No point asking now, it must be in their evidence though.

    Not the most likely point to win on in court. Nor will this (below) sounds a bit like those people who witter on ''I didn't know it was PRIVATE LAND'' as if that term has some special secret meaning. Yawn, hate that... It's land. It's not Council owned. Ergo, it's private land like my own doorstep!

    i honestly did not know i was in an official car park in the first place
    Signage/no prominent contract is the most likely winning point, as I already said in post #6 earlier.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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