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  • FIRST POST
    • crispy_chris
    • By crispy_chris 13th Apr 18, 10:48 AM
    • 479Posts
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    crispy_chris
    Torque, BHP, 0-60 times - real world feel?
    • #1
    • 13th Apr 18, 10:48 AM
    Torque, BHP, 0-60 times - real world feel? 13th Apr 18 at 10:48 AM
    I'm currently looking to get a new car, but I'm struggling to work out what engines will 'feel' like in the real world. Obviously in this day and age you're bombarded with stats, but I'm not entirely sure what they really mean.

    Currently I have a 2.0L Diesel Vauxhall Insignia with the following numbers
    - 140 BHP
    - 258 lb/ft torque
    - 10.5s 0-60 time

    Picking a similarly sized car at random (1.5L Petrol BMW 3 Series) with the following numbers
    - 134 BHP
    - 162 lb/ft torque
    - 8.9s 0-60 time

    Or a smaller car (1.5L Petrol Audi A3) has:
    - 148 BHP
    - 236 lb/ft torque
    - 8.5s 0.60 time

    So, perhaps naively I would imagine that the Audi would be the more powerful car at accelerating due to the lower 0-60 time. However in my own head previously I'd though torque represented accelerating power, which would make the Vauxhall look to be the more powerful accelerating car. Then looking at the BMW which has a pretty similar 0-60 time to the Audi, but has a far smaller amount of torque.

    I'm just trying to work out which car would be the fastest feeling car at accelerating in the real world, but colour me confused!
    Last edited by crispy_chris; 13-04-2018 at 10:53 AM. Reason: typo
Page 1
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 13th Apr 18, 11:07 AM
    • 3,648 Posts
    • 2,263 Thanks
    Car 54
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:07 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:07 AM
    0 to 60 is not the most helpful measure in real life: sone reviews give in-gear acceleration times.

    BHP on its own is pretty meaningless: you need to know the car's mass and hence its power/mass ratio.

    The BMW is less powerful, and has less torque than the Vauxhall, yet has better acceleration. That suggests it's much lighter. Or that one or both makers is telling porkies. Or all of the above.
    • facade
    • By facade 13th Apr 18, 11:15 AM
    • 3,618 Posts
    • 1,896 Thanks
    facade
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:15 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:15 AM
    The torque varies with engine speed, so that single figure could be when the engine has got to its maximum rpm.
    You want the shortest 0-60 time for the best acceleration from the lights.

    Just get a Dodge Challenger SRT Demon with the 840HP pack. $86,000 (I'd go for granite grey)

    Joey drove one in Top Gear, it sounds fantastic, like being in the first Mad Max film
    I want to go back to The Olden Days, when every single thing that I can think of was better.....

    (except air quality and Medical Science )
    • crispy_chris
    • By crispy_chris 13th Apr 18, 11:25 AM
    • 479 Posts
    • 316 Thanks
    crispy_chris
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:25 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:25 AM
    I just wanted to be sure I didn't get a car that felt less powerful than the one I'm using now. I'm quite happy with the Vauxhall's performance overall, when the turbo kicks in it feels like it moves a reasonable amount. Of course there's no obvious way to tell though, why would there be

    Not sure I'm quite ready to move to the Demon though
    • facade
    • By facade 13th Apr 18, 11:30 AM
    • 3,618 Posts
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    facade
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:30 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:30 AM

    Not sure I'm quite ready to move to the Demon though
    Originally posted by crispy_chris
    Top of my list when I become a lottery millionaire

    1.8g acceleration off the line- lifts the front wheels off the floor
    0-60 in 2.3 seconds
    0-100 in 5.1 seconds

    What's not to like?
    I want to go back to The Olden Days, when every single thing that I can think of was better.....

    (except air quality and Medical Science )
    • n217970
    • By n217970 13th Apr 18, 11:45 AM
    • 333 Posts
    • 275 Thanks
    n217970
    • #6
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:45 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:45 AM
    When do you want the acceleration? For overtaking or for beating boy racers off the line? One of my diesels (0-60 in 7.6 seconds) will keep up with and may actually beat my brothers petrol (0-60 in 6.3 seconds) in the 40-70 range. But 0-30 he has me comfortably beaten.

    He has 45 more Bhp, I have 75 more NM of torque. He also benefits from 227 less kgs.

    This is before we even get into gearing of course....
    • redux
    • By redux 13th Apr 18, 11:47 AM
    • 18,713 Posts
    • 25,038 Thanks
    redux
    • #7
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:47 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:47 AM
    You want the shortest 0-60 time for the best acceleration from the lights.
    Originally posted by facade
    Far more relevant in the real world are +20 mph or so accelerations from alresdy moving, changing down one or two gears, or indeed not at all.

    Someone swapping from a diesel, where the maximum torque is available at 1500 to 2000 rpm, and going from 40 to 60 or 50 to 70 mph is pretty relaxed, will probably find a petrol car feels like it has less urge, until they revert to the old habit of dropping down more gears.
    • crispy_chris
    • By crispy_chris 13th Apr 18, 11:54 AM
    • 479 Posts
    • 316 Thanks
    crispy_chris
    • #8
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:54 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:54 AM
    When do you want the acceleration? For overtaking or for beating boy racers off the line? One of my diesels (0-60 in 7.6 seconds) will keep up with and may actually beat my brothers petrol (0-60 in 6.3 seconds) in the 40-70 range. But 0-30 he has me comfortably beaten.

    He has 45 more Bhp, I have 75 more NM of torque. He also benefits from 227 less kgs.

    This is before we even get into gearing of course....
    Originally posted by n217970
    Yeah it's actually more from the 20mph+ range I'm looking at. I'm not a boy racer, I just like the ability to get some grunt on demand when overtaking or what-not.

    Far more relevant in the real world are +20 mph or so accelerations from alresdy moving, changing down one or two gears, or indeed not at all.

    Someone swapping from a diesel, where the maximum torque is available at 1500 to 2000 rpm, and going from 40 to 60 or 50 to 70 mph is pretty relaxed, will probably find a petrol car feels like it has less urge, until they revert to the old habit of dropping down more gears.
    Originally posted by redux
    If it makes any difference I'll probably be taking an auto this time around, so it'll drop down whatever gears it feels it needs to I suppose!
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 13th Apr 18, 2:38 PM
    • 957 Posts
    • 608 Thanks
    wgl2014
    • #9
    • 13th Apr 18, 2:38 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Apr 18, 2:38 PM
    I wouldn't get too hung up on the numbers.
    Have a test drive and see what the car feels like to drive.
    • crispy_chris
    • By crispy_chris 13th Apr 18, 2:49 PM
    • 479 Posts
    • 316 Thanks
    crispy_chris
    I wouldn't get too hung up on the numbers.
    Have a test drive and see what the car feels like to drive.
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    Absolutely, I was just hoping to avoid having to test drive a few different engine variants of the same car by understanding the numbers, but alas it doesn't appear to be that simple!
    • mchale
    • By mchale 13th Apr 18, 2:51 PM
    • 1,747 Posts
    • 965 Thanks
    mchale

    I'm just trying to work out which car would be the fastest feeling car at accelerating in the real world, but colour me confused!
    Originally posted by crispy_chris

    I would look at the 30-70 times.
    ANURADHA KOIRALA ??? go on throw it in google.
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 13th Apr 18, 4:57 PM
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    Head The Ball
    The torque varies with engine speed, so that single figure could be when the engine has got to its maximum rpm...
    Originally posted by facade
    Maximum torque (a measure of turning force) isn't produced at maximum revs, it will be at a maximum much lower down the rev range.

    Around 2,500 to 3,500 revs is where most cars will achieve maximum torque although that varies greatly from car to car or engine to engine or petrol to diesel.

    Maximum bhp (a measure of power) is usually achieved towards the top of the rev range.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=Z9PQWtGlIoaXgAbpl5RA&q=torque+curve&oq=t orque+curve&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0i67k1l2j0l8.19777.24241.0.26103.12.12.0.0. 0.0.73.653.12.12.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.12.650...0i13k1j0i13i5i30k1j0i5i30k1j0i22i30 k1j0i22i10i30k1.0.VcTgApbjGBI


    Good luck with your lottery win. Will you take me for a spin when you get the Dodge Challenger SRT Demon?
    Last edited by Head The Ball; 13-04-2018 at 5:07 PM.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Apr 18, 5:10 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,024 Thanks
    John-K
    When I was younger, and happy to sit at higher revs, I used to correctly look at peak horsepower as the number that mattered. If you are happy to sit at peak power, in a lower gear, you get good acceleration. This means that I was happy with motorbikes with little, revvy engines.

    Nowadays I am happier closer to tickover, so pr!fre engines with more torque. My last car was an AMG C63, which pulled like a train from any revs, and now I have an M3, which is the same, but with a Turbo rather than a big normally aspirated engine.

    So, I would say it depends on how you drive as to which will feel fastest. Real world is heavily affected by your driving style.

    0-60 is not the greatest measure, either, of how fast a car feels. One with a shorter accelerator movement may feel faster than one with a long travel.

    My fun car does 0-60 much faster than my M3 because it is four wheel drive, but the M3 feels like it picks up better if I just plant my foot to the floor in the gear I am driving in normally.
    Last edited by John-K; 13-04-2018 at 5:21 PM.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Apr 18, 5:20 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,024 Thanks
    John-K
    Top of my list when I become a lottery millionaire

    1.8g acceleration off the line- lifts the front wheels off the floor
    0-60 in 2.3 seconds
    0-100 in 5.1 seconds

    What's not to like?
    Originally posted by facade
    Its a nice car, but...

    They use the drag race standard measurement of not counting the first foor or so of movement, so chopping a bit off the time, somthe figures are a bit exaggerated, and they achieve the time by making it heavily compromised for anything but the drag strip.

    I really like Challengers, but Id prefer one that was designed with the odd corner in mind.
    • leosayer
    • By leosayer 13th Apr 18, 8:42 PM
    • 180 Posts
    • 78 Thanks
    leosayer
    More BHP = faster acceleration, everything else being equal. But to achieve that acceleration you need full throttle and to rev the engine to the red line in each gear.

    Generally, cars with higher torque figures will feel faster in 'normal' driving even if the 0-60 time is slower. Your Insignia may not 'feel' a lot different power-wise, compared to the newer cars.

    Bear in mind that the BHP and torque figures are peak only which might only occur at a narrow rev range.

    Weight also plays a part, which probably explains why your Insignia is so much slower 0-60 compared to the Audi and BMW which are lighter.

    The Audi torque figure you quoted is wrong. It's 184 not 236.
    • daveyjp
    • By daveyjp 13th Apr 18, 11:30 PM
    • 7,774 Posts
    • 6,332 Thanks
    daveyjp
    Its also how you expect to drive the car and what type of drive you like.

    We have just swapped a small capacity turbo 90bhp, for a 1.5 normally aspirated, 110bhp, but larger car.

    0-60 are about the same, but the small turbo was not a car you could drive smoothly, especially around town as the turbo boost wasn't matched well to the gearbox. On the open road it was much better.

    3rd wasn't quite right for a 30, but 4th took the turbo 'offline' and the car laboured and had nothing when you wanted to accelerate.

    The 1.5 has a 6 speed box and it will happily take 5th at 30mph with no labouring and it just makes for a much smoother and more pleasant driving experience, rather than an 'on/off' turbo delivering power in a lump.
    • fishybusiness
    • By fishybusiness 14th Apr 18, 8:24 AM
    • 1,240 Posts
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    fishybusiness
    Gear ratio's also affect how a car feels through the gears.

    Closer ratio boxes will give the car a nippy/ revvy feel, but then top maybe a great cruising gear so the experience may well be based on power/ torque/ weight of vehicle/ gearing = best go drive them all.
    • foomanchu
    • By foomanchu 16th Apr 18, 12:35 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    foomanchu
    Torque doesn't mean much unless you know the rate at which it is applied - give me a long enough bar and I can apply more torque than a Ferrari, I just couldn't do it quick enough to move it very fast.

    Simply put;

    Torque x Rate = (drum roll) Power
    Power / Weight = Acceleration

    So quoting torque by itself is pretty meaningless, though it can indicate where in the rpm range the power might be.

    High torque low power - power low down in rev range, tailing off high rpm
    Low torque high power - needs high revs to get the power
    High torque high power - what you need if you want to go really fast
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 16th Apr 18, 1:28 PM
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    Head The Ball
    Torque doesn't mean much unless you know the rate at which it is applied - give me a long enough bar and I can apply more torque than a Ferrari, I just couldn't do it quick enough to move it very fast.....
    Originally posted by foomanchu
    Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.

    Archimedes.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 16th Apr 18, 1:51 PM
    • 8,658 Posts
    • 7,957 Thanks
    Herzlos
    More toque will help you going up steep hills or with a heavily laden car.

    So for instance, 4 passengers and a full boot will have a much more dramatic impact on the performance of the Audi than the Vauxhall.
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