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  • FIRST POST
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 12th Apr 18, 4:27 PM
    • 293Posts
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    leitmotif
    10-minute overstay in supermarket car park, genuine shopper
    • #1
    • 12th Apr 18, 4:27 PM
    10-minute overstay in supermarket car park, genuine shopper 12th Apr 18 at 4:27 PM
    Hi. My partner took her elderly mother to a supermarket on 5 April and parked in the supermarket's car park. The car park is intended for the exclusive use of the supermarket's customers. To ensure the parking is legitimate, the supermarket asks shoppers to scan their receipts at a machine in-store after they have made their purchases, and there is a 90-minute time limit.


    From the time of entering the car park to leaving the car park they stayed for 99 minutes. They were in that one supermarket the whole time (elderly mother has a damaged hip and moves at a snail's pace). As the registered owner of the vehicle, I've received a charge from the third party that acts on behalf of the supermarket.


    My partner says that there were no parking machines in the car park. I haven't asked her whether there was adequate signage specifying the time limit. She says that there were no clocks inside the supermarket and she didn't have her mobile phone with her, so they had no way of properly gauging the time. After completing their purchases, my partner scanned her receipt at the in-store machine to 'legitimise' the parking, and it said 'thank you'.


    I would like to know how to go about fighting this. The time limit is clearly intended to stop shoppers taking advantage of the system and doing some shopping at the supermarket and then going off to other shops in the area. In this case, as my partner paid by card, the supermarket's systems will presumably be able to show that they did indeed pay not long before leaving the car park (well, not long relative to my partner's mother's snail pace). A 9-minute overstay doesn't seem excessive in view of the circumstances. I suspect that the supermarket itself would be more sympathetic, but I've read about cases where they simply say 'nothing to do with us, so liaise with the third-party parking company'.


    I did read through the private parking tickets information on here, by the way. Most of that is geared towards unfair charges, etc.
Page 2
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 10:27 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    Its not confusing, but could be worded a little better.

    USUALLY appels to the IAS are a waste of time
    However, here there is a clear breach of the requirement to allow a grace period. that SHOULD result in the PPC withdrawing - because the IAS doesnt like to allow appeals.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Apr 18, 10:38 AM
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    Umkomaas
    The cancellation is more likely to be guaranteed from Christian Haertnagel than from Will Hurley (but I note the point about 'no grace period').

    The strategic advantage of rattling the MDs cage is that it brings to his attention the aggravation Athena is creating for his customers. Long term that may cause him to consider whether having a PPC on his premises is at all advantageous.

    Having the charge cancelled by IAS leaves Christian Haertnagel completely oblivious to Athena's negative impact on customers.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 13th Apr 18, 3:01 PM
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    leitmotif
    I've read through the sticky and will post my appeal here shortly. A few comments in the meantime:


    1) I suspect that the IPC might be reading these threads. In post #9 above, I quoted point 15.2 from their code of practice, which specified a 10-minute grace period. A day after posting that, clause 15.3 has been removed and the wording in clause 15.2 has been changed to 'Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired'. No longer any mention of 10 minutes. Good thing I saved the code of practice as it was yesterday and have saved the new wording today. Presumably the code of practice at the time of the 'incident' is what matters.


    2) I take issue with the template letter provided. It is unnecessarily confrontational. I prefer a firm but diplomatic tone.


    3) The sticky doesn't resolve the question of whether to appeal to Athena first or complain to the supermarket. With regard to the latter, it says always complain to the supermarket as soon as possible. So presumably that would be the first step.
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 13th Apr 18, 3:05 PM
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    leitmotif
    The whole of clause 15 from the code of practice on 12 April 2018 at 17:13 GMT:
    15. Grace Periods
    15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
    they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
    15.2 Drivers must be allowed a minimum period of 10 minutes to leave a site after a
    pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired.
    15.3 The reference to 10 minutes in 15.2 above shall not apply where the period of pre-paid
    or permitted parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site
    makes it clear to the motorist, in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that
    land.
    The whole of clause 15 from the code of practice on 13 April 2018 at 14:56 GMT:
    15. Grace Periods
    15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
    they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
    15.2 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or
    permitted period of parking has expired.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Apr 18, 3:13 PM
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    Umkomaas
    2) I take issue with the template letter provided. It is unnecessarily confrontational. I prefer a firm but diplomatic tone.
    You could provide Athena with the most compelling evidence, even sign it off 'Lots of love from leitmotif', it will be rejected.

    The template has been written by the country's foremost expert on private parking, and is designed to not only show the PPC that the motorist has forum backing, but also prevents the poster blowing any toes off by going 'off piste' in his/her own attempt.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 13th Apr 18, 3:40 PM
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    leitmotif
    In that case, I might as well just send the template e-mail. I was going to include the following points because they provide full mitigation:


    1) Receipt shows purchase was made exactly 10 minutes before the time at which the vehicle is alleged to have left the car park.
    2) The driver was accompanied by the driver’s elderly mother, who has long-term issues with mobility.
    3) At the time of the NTK being served, the code of practice to which Athena ANPR Ltd is signed up stipulated that a 10-minute grace period should be applied.


    But if they're only going to reject it anyway, what's the point? I could just save that for a later point in time.


    Out of interest, something I didn't pick up in the sticky, why should we say 'cease and desist' if they're an IPC-registered company. Surely they've got just as much right as any of the non-IPC companies to send out these charges?
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 13th Apr 18, 5:13 PM
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    Guys Dad
    The template will probably not get a cancellation. A one point appeal using the saved "Grace" wording stands a much better chance.

    A letter to the supermarket majoring on the Grace point, backed up with your mitigation points is likely to be most productive.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Apr 18, 5:27 PM
    • 56,085 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    There is no point appealing to Athena.

    Did you search the forum for 'Athena' and see this played out a hundred times every year? The way to cancel a Lidl Athena ticket is to complain to the CEO of Lidl, giving all ticket details and agreeing for them to contact Athena to cancel it for her. INSIST.

    This is covered on every Lidl thread and Umkomaas already told you who to email. The NEWBIES FAQS sticky tread tells you to read 'SUCCESSFUL COMPLAINTS ABOUT PPCS' with a link to it, where Lidl is one of the Supermarkets mentioned near the end, with the email posted, telling you what to do to cancel any Lidl/Athena PCN.

    This is always the answer.

    That's why the sticky thread is there, so we don't have 30 posts on a long thread about 'appeals' every time someone gets one. Waste of time appealing to Athena direct.

    (elderly mother has a damaged hip and moves at a snail's pace).
    She is indeed protected by the Equality Act 2010; she meets the definition of disability and MUST be allowed more time.

    She should ask Lidl to add her car to a 'white list' so she never gets ticketed and is allowed more time. Do that in the complaint email.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Apr 18, 5:31 PM
    • 17,768 Posts
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    Redx
    She is indeed protected by the Equality Act 2010; she meets the definition of disability and MUST be allowed more time.

    She should ask Lidl to add her car to a 'white list' so she never gets ticketed and is allowed more time
    .
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    exactly what I have done with ASDA, due to having a protected characteristic under the EA2010

    and if this thread had been about me, that complaint would have gone to that CEO toute de suite !! - if not sooner , with an insistance that this ticket is cancelled

    otherwise, how are these companies going to know their contractors are causing grief for legitimate customers ?

    if I get grief, I give grief but in spades, its the motto I live by
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 14th Apr 18, 9:05 PM
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    leitmotif
    I'm drafting a complaint to Lidl, which I'm perfectly capable of doing myself, but as an aside, I wondered whether anyone else thinks it's too much of a coincidence that the IPC happen to remove the 10-minute grace period clause from their code of practice within 24 hours of me mentioning it as a clearly incontestable get-out clause on here. Why wouldn't companies like Athena be monitoring this and Pepipoo? If I'm right, then the speed with which the change has been made adds fuel to the argument that the IPC is a kangaroo court, because it suggests that all that needs to happen is for Athena to call them up and say 'would you mind removing the 10-minute clause? We've got a 10-minute case on our hands'.


    As I said, I saved both versions, so they don't have a hope in hell of winning this one.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Apr 18, 9:55 PM
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    Umkomaas
    I'm drafting a complaint to Lidl, which I'm perfectly capable of doing myself
    I'm sure you are more than capable of doing this. Just thought I'd flash this link up in front of you to read a nice and successful complaint to Ronny Gottschlich (Christian Haertnagel's predecessor), where you might find some choice phrases to give you some thoughts when you draft your own. It's from 2015, but successful complaints can age well - like fine wine! Use (or disregard) whatever you want.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69494947#post69494947
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 15th Apr 18, 12:27 PM
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    leitmotif
    Hopefully this will help others in a similar situation. As I said above, I prefer a diplomatic mode of expression, yet still clear and firm.


    Dear Mr Härtnagel,


    I am writing to express my deep dissatisfaction at the way in which my partner and her elderly mother are being treated by a third-party company acting on Lidl's behalf. Having sought advice and established that your customer service team are generally unsympathetic on this matter, I am writing to you directly as CEO to reinforce the message that loyal customers do not take kindly to being harassed by cowboy parking companies 'legitimized' by kangaroo courts masquerading as accreditation bodies.


    On 7th April my partner and her elderly mother visited your Lidl store on London Road in Portsmouth. According to the parking charge notice that we have received (number 0003536704), they entered the car park at 11:23:06. Due to my partner's mother having mobility issues, they required close to the 90-minute parking allowance to do the weekly shopping. The receipt shows that they paid for their shopping at 12:52:59. They then proceeded straight to the car (at the pace allowed by my partner's mother's health), loaded the car, and left.


    According to the letter we have received, the vehicle exited the site at 13:03:19, which puts it firmly under 101 minutes. I note that Athena is an operator accredited by the IPC, and is therefore bound by the IPC's code of practice. According to this code of practice as formulated on the date the parking charge notice was officially served (12th April), '[d]rivers must be allowed a minimum period of 10 minutes to leave a site after a pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired'. Hence by serving this parking charge notice, Athena was clearly breaching the code of practice it has signed up to as part of the conditions of its accreditation. Furthermore, I would like to highlight the inclusion of the word 'minimum' and stress that under the Equality Act 2010, organizations are required to make 'reasonable adjustments' for the disabled.


    I trust that Athena will be instructed to cancel the charge.


    Thanking you in advance for your attention to this matter.


    Yours sincerely,
    Last edited by leitmotif; 15-04-2018 at 12:30 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Apr 18, 12:36 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Your complaint to CH looks good to me. Do let us know in the next few days when he confirms a cancellation.

    To avoid your posts showing all those !!!!8217;s and the like, please switch off your 'Smart Punctuation' on your iPhone/iPad as every apostrophe and some other punctuations convert to exclamation marks and numbers. It's a forum glitch.

    Go to 'General' > 'Keyboard' > 'Smart Punctuation' and flick the switch off.

    Switching off seems to have no detrimental affect on any other use of the keyboard.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 15th Apr 18, 12:44 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 154 Thanks
    leitmotif
    Thanks for the tip. (Incidentally, I was pasting in from a PDF on my PC.)


    I will also be alerting my MP to the overnight change in the IPC's code of practice. I think it suggests that the IPC are a sham, and will serve to undermine politicians' confidence in them as an accreditation body.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Apr 18, 12:51 PM
    • 17,250 Posts
    • 27,155 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks for the tip. (Incidentally, I was pasting in from a PDF on my PC.)
    Hmmm. I don't think it fixes copy and pastes. It's been going on for the past few weeks - makes posts (especially lengthy ones with lots of punctuation) very difficult to read.

    I will also be alerting my MP to the overnight change in the IPC's code of practice. I think it suggests that the IPC are a sham, and will serve to undermine politicians' confidence in them as an accreditation body.
    Good move. Ask him/her to support the Sir Greg Knight Bill as referenced by The Deep in post #4 earlier in the thread.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 18th Apr 18, 5:03 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 154 Thanks
    leitmotif
    As you are probably aware, Lidl UK GmbH is a national retailer. As such, we have stores in locations with limited parking space and in common with many of our competitors, our store car parks are abused to a significant and detrimental extent. We have therefore judged it necessary to take measures so that our stores parking facilities are available first and foremost to our customers.
    In order to ensure that sufficient parking spaces are available at all times to our customers, Lidl employs third party contractors to monitor and control our car parks. So far, this service has proved reliable and effective in reducing car park abuse and in freeing up spaces for our customers.
    In light of your comments, on this one occasion, I have contacted the Car Park Management Company and have requested that this charge be cancelled. Please note, your comments regarding our parking restrictions have been noted and passed to the relevant department.

    Thanks for your help, guys. I will still be writing to my MP about the suspicious change to the IPC's code of practice. It's in my diary to do after the start of May (local elections in a couple of weeks). Evidence of the amendment to the CoP (with date stamps) has been retained.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 18th Apr 18, 6:15 PM
    • 7,158 Posts
    • 9,468 Thanks
    beamerguy
    These supermarkets make me laugh with such letters

    "our store car parks are abused to a significant and detrimental extent"

    I doubt that ? maybe a few rogue parkers who actually still
    might spend money. They have been sold a pup by parking
    companies

    " So far, this service has proved reliable and effective in reducing car park abuse and in freeing up spaces for our customers."

    In reality, parking scammers have made shoppers
    go elsewhere

    Lidl are still living in the clouds.

    Don't trust what Lidl has said, get confirmation from
    the parking monkey
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • leitmotif
    • By leitmotif 18th Apr 18, 8:02 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 154 Thanks
    leitmotif
    It wasn't even me shopping there, but this experience has still put me off shopping there.
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