Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • joojoobeans
    • By joojoobeans 10th Apr 18, 10:44 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 3Thanks
    joojoobeans
    Natwest transactions - Is this even legal?
    • #1
    • 10th Apr 18, 10:44 AM
    Natwest transactions - Is this even legal? 10th Apr 18 at 10:44 AM
    Looking at online banking around 12 midnight last night (9th april). Assumed it would display all transactions that had left my account that day and that no more could go through. Woke up to an additional 5 transactions having left my account on 9th april!! This senario happens all the time.

    Have asked natwest to confirm what day/time they left my actual account (assuming it might not display instantly on online banking). Surely if they are processed through my account after 12 midnight though they should show the next days date?

    My main concern is people getting charged for going overdrawn as transactions are being proccessed in the small hours but still being included in the previous days banking. Therefore, the information provided to customers about their account is inaccurate. Where do the banks stand on this? Is it legal?
Page 1
    • Slinky
    • By Slinky 10th Apr 18, 10:46 AM
    • 5,392 Posts
    • 25,340 Thanks
    Slinky
    • #2
    • 10th Apr 18, 10:46 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Apr 18, 10:46 AM
    In my experience you'll probably find if you look tomorrow those late transactions will have been redated to today's date.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 10th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    • 8,318 Posts
    • 10,667 Thanks
    PeacefulWaters
    • #3
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    Batch processing of transactions isn't an art to the exact minute.

    If you have been charged by them as a result of their timing being different to what you expect I'm sure they'll reimburse.
    • RG2015
    • By RG2015 10th Apr 18, 11:35 AM
    • 1,301 Posts
    • 766 Thanks
    RG2015
    • #4
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:35 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:35 AM
    Please see the the NatWest information on the link below.

    Click on "Planned System Updates" where they say the following:

    "In order to keep our systems up to date, we sometimes need to carry out essential maintenance. So that we don't cause you too much disruption, we do this in the early hours of the morning from 02:00 to 02:40."

    This is when they do their daily transaction update which may include transactions from the previous day.

    https://personal.natwest.com/personal/service-status.html
    Last edited by RG2015; 10-04-2018 at 11:37 AM.
    • colsten
    • By colsten 10th Apr 18, 11:46 AM
    • 9,120 Posts
    • 7,953 Thanks
    colsten
    • #5
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:46 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:46 AM
    Looking at online banking around 12 midnight last night (9th april). Assumed it would display all transactions that had left my account that day and that no more could go through. Woke up to an additional 5 transactions having left my account on 9th april!! This senario happens all the time.

    Have asked natwest to confirm what day/time they left my actual account (assuming it might not display instantly on online banking). Surely if they are processed through my account after 12 midnight though they should show the next days date?

    My main concern is people getting charged for going overdrawn as transactions are being proccessed in the small hours but still being included in the previous days banking. Therefore, the information provided to customers about their account is inaccurate. Where do the banks stand on this? Is it legal?
    Originally posted by joojoobeans
    Once you have spent your money, you should not be surprised if you get charged if you are spending it again. You should also not use your bank account to try and figure out how much money you have left to spend, as for a variety of reasons - many of which are outside the bank's control - the actual debiting might be delayed. The only person who can possibly know how much money you have left to spend is yourself. You need to track your actual, and your expected (DDs etc), spend yourself.
    • joojoobeans
    • By joojoobeans 10th Apr 18, 10:28 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    joojoobeans
    • #6
    • 10th Apr 18, 10:28 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Apr 18, 10:28 PM
    Thanks for everyone's replys.

    The system updates in the early hours, being the time when some transactions are processed, makes sense.

    However, it doesn't answer my main question.....

    Is it legal for them to knowingly process transactions during the small hours of the morning but still display the previous days date? They obviously know they won't be leaving the accounts on that date. After all, natwest have intentionally configured their systems to work in this way and could easily change the date.

    It seems to me that It works in their favour, as there are many people (e.g elderly/didabled) who will be caught out by this and possibly not have the knowldege or ability to deal with the resulting charges.

    To my mind it appears that they are purposely misleading customers by not displaying accurate information on their bank accounts.
    • Zanderman
    • By Zanderman 10th Apr 18, 11:06 PM
    • 1,771 Posts
    • 4,411 Thanks
    Zanderman
    • #7
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:06 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:06 PM
    You don't think that maybe you're over-thinking this?

    It's normal bank behaviour for overnight processing. They are processing transactions that you, the account holder, have authorised. They're doing them as fast as they can.

    You cannot claim to be 'caught out' as you'll have authorised these transactions - and should be expecting them anytime soon - and planning your banking accordingly.

    You can't, as people have pointed out above, rely on a 'live' bank balance to be accurate. It never will be if there are pending transactions. And, until the bank has updated, only you know what those pending transactions are - so the responsibility is with you.

    There's nothing 'legal' or 'illegal' about it - this is in line with the terms of your bank account which is a contractual arrangement between you and the bank.

    Why would you think lots of people get caught out by this? And why elderly/disabled in particular?

    If it makes you feel any better most banks do the same with credits - so, for example, interest due on the 1st of a month usually only appears on the 2nd, in the early hours, but is dated the 1st.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 10th Apr 18, 11:49 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,017 Thanks
    John-K
    • #8
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:49 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:49 PM
    Thanks for everyone's replys.

    The system updates in the early hours, being the time when some transactions are processed, makes sense.

    However, it doesn't answer my main question.....

    Is it legal for them to knowingly process transactions during the small hours of the morning but still display the previous days date?
    .
    Originally posted by joojoobeans
    Yes, of course it is. Why would you think that money you spent on the 9th would not be listed as going out on the 9th?
    • realaledrinker
    • By realaledrinker 11th Apr 18, 12:11 AM
    • 1,597 Posts
    • 549 Thanks
    realaledrinker
    • #9
    • 11th Apr 18, 12:11 AM
    ffs
    • #9
    • 11th Apr 18, 12:11 AM
    Whenever I hear the phrase on here 'is it legal...' I
    Ethical moneysaver
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 11th Apr 18, 2:12 AM
    • 325 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    OceanSound
    Paypal also does the same. I.e. they are 'flexible' with the transaction dates. Pretty sure they hang on to the money for 1-2 days before its posted on to our accounts.
    My complaint to the ombudsmen about this resulted in paypal offering au$100 compensation, without ombudsmen having to make decision.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 11th Apr 18, 8:47 AM
    • 8,318 Posts
    • 10,667 Thanks
    PeacefulWaters
    Perhaps they should process transactions at 9am. Give customers no chance to top up their account on the day.

    Think of the fee income.
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 11th Apr 18, 1:20 PM
    • 325 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    OceanSound
    .. Assumed it would display all transactions that had left my account that day and that no more could go through. Woke up to an additional 5 transactions having left my account on 9th april!! This senario happens all the time. ...
    Originally posted by joojoobeans
    What kind of transactions are we talking about?
    Because, I remember reading a post on here that said banks like Starling bank posts transactions immediately.
    Last edited by OceanSound; 11-04-2018 at 3:08 PM.
    • meer53
    • By meer53 11th Apr 18, 4:59 PM
    • 9,251 Posts
    • 13,436 Thanks
    meer53
    What kind of transactions are we talking about?
    Because, I remember reading a post on here that said banks like Starling bank posts transactions immediately.
    Originally posted by OceanSound
    Doesn't really matter what type of transactions they are. Once you've spent money, you should deduct it from your balance, not wait for the bank or retailer to process it. If you do that you'll never incur any charges as you'll always know how much you have in your account. It's not the banks job to watch your balance for you.

    I have a Starling account and the transactions show straight away but i don;t rely on them to keep tabs on my spending !
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 11th Apr 18, 6:38 PM
    • 154 Posts
    • 67 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    My main concern is people getting charged for going overdrawn as transactions are being processed in the small hours but still being included in the previous days banking. Therefore, the information provided to customers about their account is inaccurate. Where do the banks stand on this? Is it legal?
    Originally posted by joojoobeans
    I don't know about NatWest, exact processing and cut-off times must be somewhere in T&C.

    My recollection from the Lloyds T&C is that if your account went to overdraft because of overnight processing and then you put (by visiting a branch or online) enough funds to your account by 3pm, the overdraft fees are not charged and the overdraft is not recorded in the credit history.

    It happened to me once some four years ago. However, I spot it at 10am and there was no records/charges related to this short-term overdraft.
    Last edited by Emily Joy; 13-04-2018 at 6:32 PM.
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 12th Apr 18, 9:04 AM
    • 325 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    OceanSound
    Doesn't really matter what type of transactions they are. Once you've spent money, you should deduct it from your balance, not wait for the bank or retailer to process it. If you do that you'll never incur any charges as you'll always know how much you have in your account. It's not the banks job to watch your balance for you.

    I have a Starling account and the transactions show straight away but i don;t rely on them to keep tabs on my spending !
    Originally posted by meer53
    ...It's not the banks job to watch your balance for you.
    huh?, no ones asking it to. Pretty sure the need for clear, up to date records of the transactions have nothing to do with bank being your nanny.

    ..Once you've spent money, you should deduct it from your balance,...
    How do propose customers do this? (other than rely on their recent transactions and available balance). Enter it on a spreadsheet?. Have ANOTHER app to enter each and every transaction they carry out?

    What about the elderly?, do you propose they carry a notebook with them to write these transactions when they are out and about. Or do you propose that they remember them?
    Last edited by OceanSound; 12-04-2018 at 9:09 AM.
    • AstroTurtle
    • By AstroTurtle 12th Apr 18, 9:08 AM
    • 195 Posts
    • 620 Thanks
    AstroTurtle
    huh?, no ones asking it to. Pretty sure the need for clear, up to date records of the transactions have nothing to do with bank being your nanny.


    How do propose customers do this? (other than rely on their 'recent transactions'). Enter it on a spreadsheet?. Have ANOTHER app to enter each and every transaction they carry out?

    What about the elderly?, do you propose they carry a notebook with them to write these transactions when they are out and about. Or do you propose that they remember them?
    Originally posted by OceanSound

    Actually you'll find that the elderly and previous generations managed without App based banking for a good 200-250 years?




    You also have to remember some retailers don't process their transactions till the end of the day either, Which is why some shops transactions appear immediately in "Pending Transactions" and some retailers don't. Same with fuel it earmarks 1 until they do their processing to tell the bank who tells you.




    Now go have a shouting match in an empty room.
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 12th Apr 18, 9:14 AM
    • 325 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    OceanSound
    Actually you'll find that the elderly and previous generations managed without App based banking for a good 200-250 years?

    You also have to remember some retailers don't process their transactions till the end of the day either, Which is why some shops transactions appear immediately in "Pending Transactions" and some retailers don't. Same with fuel it earmarks 1 until they do their processing to tell the bank who tells you.

    Now go have a shouting match in an empty room.
    Originally posted by AstroTurtle
    ** white space removed from quote above to keep it tidy.
    Actually you'll find that the elderly and previous generations managed without App based banking for a good 200-250 years?
    Was their credit/debit cards 200-250 years ago?

    Now go have a shouting match in an empty room.
    you mean you don't like it when someone points out the elephant in the room.
    • meer53
    • By meer53 12th Apr 18, 9:44 AM
    • 9,251 Posts
    • 13,436 Thanks
    meer53
    ** white space removed from quote above to keep it tidy.


    Was their credit/debit cards 200-250 years ago?



    you mean you don't like it when someone points out the elephant in the room.
    Originally posted by OceanSound
    What we mean is that people should take personal responsibility for their spending and not come on here to rant and blame the banks systems when they've overspent and had to pay charges. It's very simple to monitor what you're spending, it takes 5 mins a day at the most, no need for spreadsheets or complicated recording systems, i find pen and paper works quite well. I also use internet banking and have text message alerts too, it's never been easier.
    Or, you could just carry on and be surprised/shocked every day ! It's your choice.
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 12th Apr 18, 9:57 AM
    • 154 Posts
    • 67 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    What we mean is that people should take personal responsibility for their spending and not come on here to rant and blame the banks systems when they've overspent and had to pay charges. It's very simple to monitor what you're spending, it takes 5 mins a day at the most, no need for spreadsheets or complicated recording systems, i find pen and paper works quite well. I also use internet banking and have text message alerts too, it's never been easier.
    Or, you could just carry on and be surprised/shocked every day ! It's your choice.
    Originally posted by meer53
    It's actually retailers who delay processing of funds quite often. For instance, contactless transactions usually show on the statement a few days later. Transaction made on the Lufthansa website appeared on the statement about a week later. Moreover, Amazon makes the charge when the goods are dispatched which could be a month after the order was made. In addition, quite often hotels can charge first night fee any time between the booking and check-in day.

    There was a lot of noise some month ago when Tesco suddenly processed a bunch of December transactions with several months of delay.
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 12th Apr 18, 10:16 AM
    • 325 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    OceanSound
    What we mean is that people should take personal responsibility for their spending and not come on here to rant and blame the banks systems when they've overspent and had to pay charges. It's very simple to monitor what you're spending, it takes 5 mins a day at the most, no need for spreadsheets or complicated recording systems, i find pen and paper works quite well. I also use internet banking and have text message alerts too, it's never been easier.
    Or, you could just carry on and be surprised/shocked every day ! It's your choice.
    Originally posted by meer53
    What we mean is that people should take personal responsibility for their spending...
    So you admit that you're working as a team.
    It's very simple to monitor what you're spending,...
    The OP is clearly monitoring what he is spending. I believe it was one of your "we" team that turned the post in to something about financial discipline.

    For purely card transactions, there is no way you can go overdrawn, because with most systems these days, when the retailer swipes the card and you've hit your limit, it will simply decline the transaction.

    I'm not saying don't keep track of your spending. I do it religiously (Clearly, the OP is doing the same). But don't make this what it's not. "backdating" transactions is never good. Especially when done by a bank for their own gain.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

4,681Posts Today

8,643Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Ta ta... for now. This August, as I try and do every few yrs, I'm lucky enough to be taking a sabbatical. No work,? https://t.co/Xx4R3eLhFG

  • RT @lethalbrignull: @MartinSLewis I've been sitting here for a good while trying to decide my answer to this, feeling grateful for living i?

  • Early days but currently it's exactly 50 50 in liberality v democracy, with younger people more liberal, older more? https://t.co/YwJr4izuIj

  • Follow Martin