Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 11:03 AM
    • 13Posts
    • 7Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    Lease car notice to hirer - help please!
    • #1
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:03 AM
    Lease car notice to hirer - help please! 9th Apr 18 at 11:03 AM
    Hi All - read through the newbie file but have a question that I canít see has been asked (though sure it has and itís just my inability to use a search function!)

    Postal charge notice - private car park - 2 occasion a week apart.

    1st occasion - 1st of the month... lease company contacted 10 days later, they responded Day 12.

    2nd occasion: 7th of the month... lease company contacted 10 days later, they responded Day 12.

    I have received notice to hirer for 1st occasion... it refers to appeal within 28 days on the front but on the back (the PoFA bit) refers to day 22 hirer being liable if payment not made.

    I was planning to send a template appeal for both instances after 21 days of 2nd occasion them being advised of hire agreement from lease company, but before 28 days from first occasion to be within the 1st occasion appeal window... but the confusion I have is the reference from the parking firm on the POFA section refers to my liability after day 22?

    Can someone with more experience than I explain whether this day 22 liability is real or just an untrue threat to get me to pay?

    Thanks in advance! And apologies if this is a duplicate question!
    John boy
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Apr 18, 11:33 AM
    • 36,541 Posts
    • 82,773 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:33 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:33 AM
    It's 21 days for hire vehicles. This is covered by Schedule 4 paragraphs 13 and 14.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    Mentioning 22 days when the POFA says 21 days means even that is non complaint as they have not used the very strict mandatory wording.

    The chances are that the scammers will get it wrong anyway by not including a copy of the hire/lease agreement, or muck up some other way.

    Both PCNs need appealing separately, but I think you have got the hang of this already. Well done on reading the NEWBIES before coming here. It makes things so much easier for the regulars when posters do that.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 09-04-2018 at 11:46 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Apr 18, 11:37 AM
    • 2,205 Posts
    • 2,598 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #3
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:37 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:37 AM
    PResumably there is no cpoy of the lease / hire agreeement inluded? If so simple BOGOFF will do. THey cannot hold the Keeper liable without this info.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    • 8,980 Posts
    • 8,635 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    • 36,541 Posts
    • 82,773 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    PResumably there is no cpoy of the lease / hire agreeement inluded? If so simple BOGOFF will do. THey cannot hold the Keeper liable without this info.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    I think they cannot hold the hire/lessee (day to day keeper) liable without a copy of the agreement, but theoretically they can hold the registered keeper (the hire company) liable.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 12:00 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    • #6
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:00 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:00 PM
    Thanks all for replies so far!

    I believe on both occasions the lease company have presented them with the required docs to release them from liability... the parking firm have not provided me with a copy of these though, which I believe is required to make either notice valid?

    I was going to send the Edna badger template for both, but if I can help it, I want to send this past the 22 days for occasion 1 as otherwise will give them opportunity to send and be compliant on occasion 2??

    I guess my question is if they have not sent me the hire agreement etc that my lease company sent them... is the 22 day POFA date irrelevant and charge therefore not enforceable regardless of when I appeal?? (Will still email within 28 days of occasion 1).

    Thanks! JB
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Apr 18, 12:13 PM
    • 36,541 Posts
    • 82,773 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #7
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:13 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:13 PM
    It's Edna Basher, not badger.

    Does the POFA say the hirer has to respond by day 21 or does it apply only to the PPC providing the relevant info by day 21?
    If it is the latter, then use the 28 days from the front of the NTH as your deadline, pointing out that they have failed the POFA requirements by not supplying a copy of the hire agreement meaning that the hirer cannot be held liable.

    Quote the relevant part of the POFA to show how they have failed.

    The 22 days is minor compared with not providing a copy of the agreement. Save that for another day.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 12:27 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:27 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:27 PM
    Oops sorry Edna! My bad!

    POFA states

    14(2)a - creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub paragraph 5 a notice to hirer - together with a copy of the documents in 13(2)

    13(2) being the hire agreement etc

    14(2)b a period of 21 days has elapsed

    14(3) in subparagraph 2a the relevant period is 21 days beginning with the day after that in which the docs in 13(2) are given to the creditor

    So I read this to say the parking firm should have sent me all the docs that the lease firm sent them (which they havenít) within 22 days... so if I appeal within 28 days with the Edna template of the first occasion, making sure itís also more than 22 days after they received the paperwork for the second occasion...

    And by the fact that the lease firm sent them the docs on both occasions... they wonít be liable, and because the parking firm didnít send me the copy of hire agreements etc in 22 days i am not liable as hirer.
    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 12:29 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    • #9
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:29 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Apr 18, 12:29 PM
    I think thatís the case anyway but I would welcome your views on it!
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Apr 18, 1:39 PM
    • 2,205 Posts
    • 2,598 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, they had 21 days from getting your details to send ALL the info

    Its almost certain ght elease company DID NOT provide the PPC with those documents - as the BVRLA came to a private agreement that they would not do so.


    Fruitcake -BVRLA came to an agreement that the hire companies would have no liability if they provided a name and address. The PPCs would be foolish to try anything against the hire compaqny wich would breach that agreement
    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 2:19 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    Thanks nosfer - but even if the lease company did not send the hire agreement, the legislation still requires the hirer to be sent them, and if this doesn!!!8217;t happen within 22 days the hirer cannot be held liable - if I!!!8217;m understanding what you are saying?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 18, 2:36 PM
    • 56,024 Posts
    • 69,697 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    And by the fact that the lease firm sent them the docs on both occasions... they won!!!8217;t be liable, and because the parking firm didn!!!8217;t send me the copy of hire agreements etc in 22 days i am not liable as hirer.
    Yes, you are correct.

    Nice research, you will win this at POPLA, if this is a BPA member.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Apr 18, 2:44 PM
    • 2,205 Posts
    • 2,598 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yep, they HAVe to send the documents to claim keepe rliability under POFA2012
    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 2:54 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    Perfect thanks both.

    I checked the wording on the pofa section of the notice to hirer I received .. apparently the lease company have provided the hire agreement etc... according to the parking firm anyway!

    So I will wait until 21 days have passed since lease firm responded to occasion 2... but before 28 days are up from when I was sent notice to hirer on occasion 1... wish me luck!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 18, 2:57 PM
    • 56,024 Posts
    • 69,697 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would wait till DAY 20 (afternoon) from when the lease firm responded to occasion 2.

    Day 20 is safe, because the PPC could not get a new Hirer Notice & enclosures to you in time.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 3:03 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    Ok thanks coupon. Does the 20 days include bank hols/weekends do you know, or is it calendar days?

    That will be after 21 days of occasion 1 though, I take it that doesnít matter? Will still be within 28 days of NtH

    Thank you!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 18, 3:05 PM
    • 56,024 Posts
    • 69,697 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Count all days, including weekends & Bank Holidays.

    As long as it's within 21 days of receipt of the NTH then it's OK. If not, I would do it on day 21 of receiving the first NTH.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 9th Apr 18, 3:23 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    OK - will submit within 21 days of me receiving the 1st NtH.

    Thanks all!
    • JohnBoy987
    • By JohnBoy987 17th Apr 18, 11:56 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JohnBoy987
    Hi all - another query - I went to put the Edna template through an appeal and notice on the forum in the last week a reference to company cars and hirers

    The car is hired through a lease scheme offered by a company via salary sacrifice...a perk of the job, but not sure if this classes as a company car and whether at the appeal to parking firm I need to add anything to the original Edna template I was getting ready to click send on today??

    As always your expertise is really appreciated!!

    JB
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Apr 18, 11:58 AM
    • 56,024 Posts
    • 69,697 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think Edna's template covers this situation, so submit it.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,014Posts Today

6,622Users online

Martin's Twitter