Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Apr 18, 9:45 AM
    • 1,675Posts
    • 2,197Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    Deprivation of assets
    • #1
    • 9th Apr 18, 9:45 AM
    Deprivation of assets 9th Apr 18 at 9:45 AM
    Hi everyone.
    My father-in-law has been seriously ill for some time and his various conditions are terminal. He is likely to die this year and at the moment, still lives with my mother-in-law in their house which they own outright. For some months now my MIL has been trying to give us a sum of money for our children's university education, which we have resisted because we think the in-laws will need the money to buy equipment and adaptations for their house as they age. My in-laws are fairly secretive about financial matters so I have no idea what savings they have or what amount they are trying to give us, but my guess would be somewhere between a few and ten thousand pounds. We are fortunately in the position that we don't need the money.

    Over the weekend, my in-laws were told that it won't be long before FIL will probably need to move to a hospice and the subject of assets came up. My in-laws aren't financially savvy and just don't understand things like care funding, asset assessments and so on, so their initial reaction over the weekend was to panic and they are insisting they will send us a cheque this week because they don't want to pay for my FIL's care. I have explained to MIL that we cannot accept sums of money because it will be very obvious to anyone that looks into it that she has deliberately deprived herself of assets. Simply, we will just tear up the cheque because we don't want the hassle of an investigation and the consequences and she and FIL wouldn't cope with the stress of it anyway.

    Now, MIL is a difficult person to reason with, so I need a plan, and that's where I need some advice. MIL is 15 years younger than FIL and in good health, so we have good reason to think that she might live for another 20 years. My plan is to tell her that we should re-assess the situation after FIL has died. If their assets (down to the threshold) are used to pay for his care, so be it. If they're not because he dies before needing professional care or are only partially used before he dies, then would she be at liberty to gift money to her grandchildren at that point, more confident that it is unlikely to qualify as deprivation of assets if she's still in good health?

    I need to go back to her with a plan that is above board and that she and FIL will be happy with, knowing that their grandchildren will benefit from their generosity in the future but that now isn't the right time. Is my reasoning sound?
Page 1
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 9th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    • 38,380 Posts
    • 34,975 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    • #2
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    I think your reasoning is sound, however I wouldn't underestimate the toll which caring for someone takes on a person. It is not unknown for the survivor to fall apart - mentally or physically - even if they previously appeared in good health. Also worth pointing out to MIL (if she'll listen) that she may wish to down-size in due course and the most important thing is that she should be comfortably able to afford her lifestyle.

    But I'd start with your first reasoning and see if you can 'win' on that one.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern on order...
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Apr 18, 11:18 AM
    • 1,675 Posts
    • 2,197 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    • #3
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:18 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:18 AM
    Thanks for your reply. I'll see how it goes when I broach it. I will sell it on the basis that it's better to spend the money on ensuring the best level of care rather than relying on the basic level afforded by the state. I will also point out that she really doesn't need the added stress of the local authority questioning her financial decisions. We won't accept any cheque she writes and she doesn't have our banking details so she can't force the money on us anyway.

    Yes, I can well imagine my MIL not coping alone, I don't think she's particularly resilient. She's not really coping mentally with FIL's needs at home now (which aren't too demanding yet), which is why a hospice is something they've been asked to consider.
    • maman
    • By maman 9th Apr 18, 11:28 AM
    • 17,782 Posts
    • 106,518 Thanks
    maman
    • #4
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:28 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:28 AM
    Didn't want to read and run. Hope you can get through to them when You broach the subject.


    All I wanted to comment on was that AFAIK they won't need to pay for hospice care. Has it been suggested by their GP? Is it for respite? In my experience it's either suggested close to the end or sometimes to come up with a palliative medication plan to use at home.
    • Ames
    • By Ames 9th Apr 18, 11:30 AM
    • 17,138 Posts
    • 30,123 Thanks
    Ames
    • #5
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:30 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:30 AM
    My mum died in a hospice seven years ago, there were no fees to pay. I assume it was because it's nursing care and not social care. Things might have changed though, or it might vary in different ones. You can probably find out what the rules are at the one he's going to be in.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.
    • Tammykitty
    • By Tammykitty 9th Apr 18, 11:35 AM
    • 570 Posts
    • 1,194 Thanks
    Tammykitty
    • #6
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:35 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:35 AM
    AS above - you generally don't pay for a hospice


    Also, If you think they have less than £10k - then there would be no fees out of savings regardless


    Less than £14,250 This will be ignored and won't be included in the means-test !!!8211; the local authority will pay for your care. However they will still take your eligible income into account.
    Weight Loss Challenge
    Start: 10th September 2016 - 49lbs to lose.
    Progress - 22/49 (3/12/16)

    Restarted 8/05/17 - 41lbs to lose (Managed to put 1 stone on in 4 months!) Progress 6/41 (13/05/17)
    • thorsoak
    • By thorsoak 9th Apr 18, 11:37 AM
    • 5,616 Posts
    • 25,628 Thanks
    thorsoak
    • #7
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:37 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:37 AM
    Could you suggest to the In-laws that now might be the time for you/your wife to have an Enduring Power of Attorney? To take away the worry from your mother in law?
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Apr 18, 11:46 AM
    • 1,675 Posts
    • 2,197 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:46 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:46 AM
    Didn't want to read and run. Hope you can get through to them when You broach the subject.


    All I wanted to comment on was that AFAIK they won't need to pay for hospice care. Has it been suggested by their GP? Is it for respite? In my experience it's either suggested close to the end or sometimes to come up with a palliative medication plan to use at home.
    Originally posted by maman
    It's been suggested by their health visitor. I'm getting some of this second-hand (via my sister-in-law) and my MIL can sometimes have muddled thinking so I'm not sure if I've used exactly the right terms. My FIL is on palliative medication at home - he has a combination of diabetes, heart problems and kidney failure so he's on quite a cocktail!

    I think the health visitor's view is that my MIL is not coping with FIL at home.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Apr 18, 11:48 AM
    • 1,675 Posts
    • 2,197 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    • #9
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:48 AM
    • #9
    • 9th Apr 18, 11:48 AM
    AS above - you generally don't pay for a hospice


    Also, If you think they have less than £10k - then there would be no fees out of savings regardless


    Less than £14,250 This will be ignored and won't be included in the means-test !!!8211; the local authority will pay for your care. However they will still take your eligible income into account.
    Originally posted by Tammykitty
    My guess is that they have more than the £24k(?) threshold because it was apparently the mention of this that prompted the urgency from my MIL to start giving money away.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Apr 18, 11:50 AM
    • 1,675 Posts
    • 2,197 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    Could you suggest to the In-laws that now might be the time for you/your wife to have an Enduring Power of Attorney? To take away the worry from your mother in law?
    Originally posted by thorsoak
    Thanks. There are four children so this will require some family discussions. Thankfully we are all financially independent and share the primary concern for MIL/FIL's well-being so it is relatively easy to agree on things like this.
    • onlyroz
    • By onlyroz 9th Apr 18, 12:02 PM
    • 13,930 Posts
    • 26,649 Thanks
    onlyroz
    I believe that you can legitimately give your grandchildren £3000 a year with no tax implications and without running foul of the deprivation of assets rule.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 9th Apr 18, 12:08 PM
    • 29,115 Posts
    • 74,421 Thanks
    Mojisola
    I believe that you can legitimately give your grandchildren £3000 a year with no tax implications and without running foul of the deprivation of assets rule.
    Originally posted by onlyroz
    Not so............
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Apr 18, 12:17 PM
    • 1,675 Posts
    • 2,197 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    I believe that you can legitimately give your grandchildren £3000 a year with no tax implications and without running foul of the deprivation of assets rule.
    Originally posted by onlyroz
    Thanks but that's not the case. I came across this guide which I'll post here for anyone else in a similar situation: https://www.which.co.uk/elderly-care/financing-care/gifting-assets-and-property/343063-what-are-the-rules-for-gifting-assets

    The important question here is "Was the gift a significant amount that would make a difference to your relative’s capital limit?"

    In all honesty, I don't know the answer for sure but the circumstances and sudden urgency suggests the answer in this situation is yes. The local authority consider motive, timing and amount. Motive and timing are very obviously there and I can't see my MIL creating such an urgency if it were £100 we were talking about.

    The answers about hospice care not needing funding have been very helpful and should help put MIL's mind at rest. We will still be insisting she holds onto the money because she needs to assess the landscape over the next couple of years before making that decision.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 9th Apr 18, 12:53 PM
    • 11,404 Posts
    • 13,291 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    Just to confirm that hospice care is free.

    https://www.nhs.uk/Planners/end-of-life-care/Pages/hospice-care.aspx

    A hospice can also be used for respite care.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

121Posts Today

1,540Users online

Martin's Twitter