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  • FIRST POST
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 8th Apr 18, 5:56 PM
    • 339Posts
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    anticlaus105
    Chief rent / Rentcharge issue - UPDATED please help
    • #1
    • 8th Apr 18, 5:56 PM
    Chief rent / Rentcharge issue - UPDATED please help 8th Apr 18 at 5:56 PM
    I bought a property around 14 years ago with a business partner. Around a year later I bought the other half from my partner. During this 2nd purchase I also paid for !!!8220;absent landlord indemnity policy!!!8221;, but have no paperwork other than it being listed on the solicitor invoice. A couple of years later my ex business partner forwarded me some demands for chief rent for ~5pa. I investigated it and found it was legit, so have been paying it ever since. It didn!!!8217;t occur to me if my policy could have been used at this time. I once inquired about buying it out and was offered it for 500. Given this would take me 100 years to make back I just carried on paying it yearly. I did not know about the scheme to redeem it for approx. 16x its yearly value and have only just become aware of this.

    My last payment for ~5 was until end April 2018 and is listed as Chief Rent Charge.

    A few days ago I received a letter addressed to !!!8220;the long leaseholder!!!8221; from another company stating they had bought the !!!8220;freehold!!!8221; to my property and that all future rent payments !!!8220;under my lease!!!8221; are to be made to them. This letter contains an address discrepancy, asks for ~8pa, and says it is due for period end March 2018.

    I have emailed the company to enquire about the address discrepancy, the difference in charging period and amount and if they are trying to collect chief rent/rent charge? I am waiting for them to come back to me after the Easter break.

    The letter also says the !!!8220;relevant lease!!!8221; states the property must be insured by an insurance company that is !!!8220;approved by the landlord!!!8221; or I need to pay the 25pa. There are several mentions of lease for various reasons throughout the letter.

    I have the title plan from the land registry which has the lease as being for 40.0s.0d for 999 years in 1872 and a few properties (I think this may be where the new price comes from). There is also another paragraph - By an Assignment dated 1896 made between (1) (redacted) (2) (redacted) and (3) (redacted) and others the land in this title was informally exonerated from the rent reserved by the lease. I also have another document that is written in very old language that mentions apportionment.

    I have read some horror storied of people not paying these small amounts and then getting stung by old draconian laws. In fact, it appears that in some cases buying up these rent charges is done so unwitting property owners can be scammed for disproportionate admin fees later down the line. I wish I had known about the redemption option earlier but given the letter I have received am unsure if this would have been an option.

    Can anyone offer any advice/insight into what I can do going forward? I have had a look at the form to submit to redeem the rent charge but am unsure about a few elements. I!!!8217;m not sure if it applies to my case anyway. If it does would it be possible to complete myself with some online help, or am I going to need a solicitor? If so does anyone have a recommendation and likely cost? It asks for things like !!!8220;The type of deed (e.g. conveyance, registered transfer)!!!8221; and a few other things I don!!!8217;t think I have the details of. I am also concerned about the approved insurer part. This was never mentioned previously and I can see no mention of it in any paperwork I have. Can they impose/enforce this? TBH I'm also getting a bit mixed up with the various terminology.

    I also understand rent charges need to be paid within 40 days of their due date, whether asked for or not, otherwise the owner can create a lease/occupy the premises?
    Last edited by anticlaus105; 13-04-2018 at 11:49 AM.
Page 1
    • G_M
    • By G_M 8th Apr 18, 8:50 PM
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    G_M
    • #2
    • 8th Apr 18, 8:50 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Apr 18, 8:50 PM
    ...... During this 2nd purchase I also paid for !!!8220;absent landlord indemnity policy!!!8221;, but have no paperwork other than it being listed on the solicitor invoice.
    Originally posted by anticlaus105
    So what did your solicitor say when you asked?
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 8th Apr 18, 9:32 PM
    • 339 Posts
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    anticlaus105
    • #3
    • 8th Apr 18, 9:32 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Apr 18, 9:32 PM
    So what did your solicitor say when you asked?
    Originally posted by G_M
    Unfortunately the solicitor I used is no longer in business. Apart from it being listed on the invoice I have nothing else. Is there some way I can search for the policy or are solicitors files transferred somewhere when the close?

    It was a company called nightingale and co based in the North West (I used the hindley branch).
    Last edited by anticlaus105; 08-04-2018 at 9:34 PM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 9th Apr 18, 7:17 PM
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    G_M
    • #4
    • 9th Apr 18, 7:17 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Apr 18, 7:17 PM
    https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/advice/practice-notes/closing-down-your-practice/


    http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems/solicitor-closed-down.page
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 10th Apr 18, 10:58 AM
    • 339 Posts
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    anticlaus105
    • #5
    • 10th Apr 18, 10:58 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Apr 18, 10:58 AM
    Thanks. I have now found out where the files were transferred to and am making inquiries there.
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 13th Apr 18, 11:49 AM
    • 339 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    anticlaus105
    • #6
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:49 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Apr 18, 11:49 AM
    I have manged to obtain the policy documents from my bank (they were with the deeds). The first invoice for rent charge is from 2009. My policy is from 2007. The invoice was sent to my ex business partner who forwarded it onto me. I forgot about the policy and after deciding it was genuine just paid it since then, until this new correspondence the other week which made me revisit it.

    Can anyone advise me what this policy covers me for and if I am still covered by it so could use it now? Would it cover having it redeemed/abolished?

    On the last page it mentions letting them know without delay.






    Last edited by anticlaus105; 13-04-2018 at 11:53 AM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Apr 18, 12:45 PM
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    G_M
    • #7
    • 13th Apr 18, 12:45 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Apr 18, 12:45 PM
    You have not given exact dates for any of the relevant transactions, however, the policy is clear:

    It covers you for any demands for rent covering any period before the policy date. You took out the policy in 2007
    The first invoice for rent charge is from 2009.
    You do not say what period this invoice covers. If it was for a ny period before 2007, you could have claimed. If it was for the period 2007-2009 the policy would not cover you.


    I have the title plan from the land registry which has the lease as being for 40.0s.0d for 999 years in 1872 and a few properties (I think this may be where the new price comes from). There is also another paragraph - By an Assignment dated 1896 made between (1) (redacted) (2) (redacted) and (3) (redacted) and others the land in this title was informally exonerated from the rent reserved by the lease. I also have another document that is written in very old language that mentions apportionment.
    This needs futher clarification /investigation:

    * 40s is 2.00 pa. So why the demand for 5?
    * the lease expired in 1971. Was it renewed? You may own nothing.....
    * What exactly does the 1896 Assignment say? i) Does it also extend the lease perhaps? What exactly does it say with regard to exonerating the rent? You may owe nothing.
    * and what about this 'other document'?
    Last edited by G_M; 13-04-2018 at 12:58 PM.
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 13th Apr 18, 1:43 PM
    • 339 Posts
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    anticlaus105
    • #8
    • 13th Apr 18, 1:43 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Apr 18, 1:43 PM
    Thanks for all your help so far.

    I think the original invoice ran from 2006 so I guess I could have saved a few quid. I have been a bit ambiguous with amounts and details as I'm aware I'm on the internet and don't know who may be reading. I thought 40s would be 40 pounds. It cover 5 properties hence the 8 new demand. Have I got this wrong? An old document lists 4s15 (4 pounds 15 shillings?) so 4.75 which is what I've been paying. It gives payment dates as half due 1st may and half due 1st Nov, but I've just been paying the full 4.75 on 1st may each year. The new demand is for 8 from about the 25th of March.

    If the insurance is useless I would like to just pay correctly and then redeem it. I have the form to apply to redeem but am stuck on a few questions. I tried calling them but on the 2 numbers it goes to voicemail.

    If you are ok with I can pm you some more detailed info. I'm out atm so replying on my phone, but when im at my pc I can get more details.

    Just to add lease is for 999 years not 99 so would expire 2871. Most rentcharge will be abolished in 2037 anyway, but to save any mither and this weird insurance clause I would just like it gone asap. I just wish i had learned about the redemtion option earlier.
    Last edited by anticlaus105; 13-04-2018 at 1:46 PM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Apr 18, 1:47 PM
    • 46,190 Posts
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    G_M
    • #9
    • 13th Apr 18, 1:47 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Apr 18, 1:47 PM
    has the lease as being for 40.0s.0d for 999 years in 1872
    Sorry - my mistake. That is 40. I mis-read it.

    An old document lists 4s15 (4 pounds 15 shillings?) so 4.75
    Yes.

    Though who knows whether this 'old document' is valid or not.

    I suspect you are going to have tto take all the various leases, old documnets etc to a prperty solicitor to read through properly. Whether the costs of this lease justify paying a solicitor is debateble....
    Last edited by G_M; 13-04-2018 at 1:50 PM.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 13th Apr 18, 1:52 PM
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    Cakeguts
    You have not given exact dates for any of the relevant transactions, however, the policy is clear:

    It covers you for any demands for rent covering any period before the policy date. You took out the policy in 2007
    You do not say what period this invoice covers. If it was for a ny period before 2007, you could have claimed. If it was for the period 2007-2009 the policy would not cover you.


    This needs futher clarification /investigation:

    * 40s is 2.00 pa. So why the demand for 5?
    * the lease expired in 1971. Was it renewed? You may own nothing.....
    * What exactly does the 1896 Assignment say? i) Does it also extend the lease perhaps? What exactly does it say with regard to exonerating the rent? You may owe nothing.
    * and what about this 'other document'?
    Originally posted by G_M
    I think it said 40.0s.0d so that is 40 old pre decimalisation s.

    I don't think chief rent had anything to do with the lease. You could have a freehold house and still have to pay chief rent.
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 13th Apr 18, 4:05 PM
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    anticlaus105
    Here is the original title plan I downloaded a few years ago:




    Last edited by anticlaus105; 13-04-2018 at 4:26 PM.
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 13th Apr 18, 4:23 PM
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    anticlaus105
    Here is part of the other document I managed to obtain that references the 1st may and 1st nov. It also list the payment as 23.15.0 which split 5 ways would be 4.75. I think it also pretty much says I need to pay within 30 days of the sum becoming due. I also get the idea that it actually started in Novemebr so if paying yearly I should really be paying nov-nov and not may-may.


    Last edited by anticlaus105; 13-04-2018 at 4:28 PM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Apr 18, 4:30 PM
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    G_M
    That (post11) is the Freehold Title yes?

    Owned then by someone who made demands for rent 'some years ago, and now apparantly purchased and owned by the company now making demnds fo rent, yes?

    1) buy and download the latest Freehold Title. Check it is owned by the company now demanding payment.

    2) That Freehold Title covers the land apparantly occupied by house numbers 22, 24, 26, 28, & 30.

    3) I assume you own the lease to one of those properties.

    4) Amongst your documents, do you have a complete copy of the lease that you own? If not, is it held by the Land Registry? The Land Registry Leasehold Title (3 here) should indicate if the LR holds the lease itself.

    5) you mention an 'address dicrepancy' on an invoice, but don't say what it is.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Apr 18, 4:32 PM
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    G_M
    Post 12 looks like your lease.
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 13th Apr 18, 5:02 PM
    • 339 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    anticlaus105
    Many years ago I searched for the deeds/title to my property because of a usage issue regarding my backyard. The thread is here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3000304 (which annoyingly I never really did sort out). At this time is searched my address and ended up downloading the document that covers 5 properties. I have just notice in the document a title number specific to my property and used it to search and download my specific one. It does mention the lease but not who owns it. I guess I will need to download the 5 property on to see those details, so will do shortly.

    Am I correct assuming I only have to pay 4.75 on 1 st May? The address discrepancy is that in the letter they sent they used one of the other properties addresses.Tthe letter has my address at the top and on the demand page but start RE: xx somewhere street which the number of another property (within the 5). I doubt this matters but just wanted to make sure they hadn't made a mistake, but I assume we will all be paying the same.

    Oddly the lease document #12 wasn't available when I searched the land registry. I managed to get when bying my home after asking the solicitor to see what they could find about my other property.

    EDIT: On the land registry there are the 2 sets of items I have downloaded (inc the one covering 5 properties that I need to do again) and two more sets available. Of the two other sets of title register and title plane one is listed freehold and the other leasehold. I have downloaded the leasehold one and it the same title number as the 5 property one and lists the new company.

    So we have options:
    XX somewhere st XXX XQY - Leasehold = just downloaded. Covers 5 properties and is similar to 2011 reg/plan but has new details.

    XX somewhere st XXX XQY - Freehold = Not downloaded yet (Is it going to be same as HY one?)

    XX - XX (even) somewhere st XXX XQY - Leasehold - Is this just the same as the one at the top? I think this is what I downloaded in 2011.

    XX somewhere st XXX XHY - Leasehold = Just downloaded and is for just my property. It list me, the lease and my bank. The title plan just covers my property.

    I guess I should mention that the postcode has always been a bit ambiguous. Some use QY and some HY (obv changed from real but you get the idea).
    Last edited by anticlaus105; 13-04-2018 at 5:38 PM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Apr 18, 5:28 PM
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    G_M
    Many years ago I searched for the deeds/title to my property because of a usage issue regarding my backyard. The thread is here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3000304 (which annoyingly I never really did sort out). At this time is searched my address and ended up downloading the document that covers 5 properties.
    So you downloaded the freehhold title which
    a) you don't own. (I assume your name was not shown as the registered owner) and
    b) comprises the land on which all 5 properties sit

    I have just notice in the document a title number specific to my property and used it to search and download my specific one.
    So you now have the registered Leasehod title for your property. I assume you are shown as being the registered owner, yes?

    It does mention the lease but not who owns it.
    The lease will not show the current owner. It will only show the original owner.

    The current owner is shown in the registered leasehold Title which you have now obtained.


    I guess I will need to download the 5 property on to see those details, so will do shortly.
    You do not need the titles to the other 4 houses.

    .....

    The address discrepancy is that in the letter they sent they used one of the other properties addresses.Tthe letter has my address at the top and on the demand page but start RE: xx somewhere street which the number of another property (within the 5). I doubt this matters but just wanted to make sure they hadn't made a mistake, but I assume we will all be paying the same.
    An insignificant admin error.

    Oddly the lease document #12 wasn't available when I searched the land registry.


    ......
    Originally posted by anticlaus105
    The lease itself won't be listed on that web page as it cannot be downloaded.
    If the Land Registry hold a copy (ring and ask them, quoting the Tite Number), you can apply for a paper copy for 12.00 using Form OC2 here.
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 13th Apr 18, 5:36 PM
    • 339 Posts
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    anticlaus105
    Sorry I made a few edits while you were typing.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Apr 18, 5:40 PM
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    G_M

    Am I correct assuming I only have to pay 4.75 on 1 st May?
    Originally posted by anticlaus105
    On further review, I'm not convinced post 12 above shows your lease. It seems to refer to all 5 properties.

    It is logical, but not certain,that the 23 15s referred to in that lease, would be divided equally between the sub-leases for each property ie 4.75 each.

    But the only way to know would be to check the specific lease that you own, for you individual property.

    It now seems there is

    1) some freehold land with 5 properties sitting on it
    2) that land, and the 5 properties, were then leased to someone in 1872? (though there's no date in the post 12 lease.). So a Freehold Title exists and a leasehold title now also exists, for all 5 properties.
    3) then at some unknown time, at lease one sub-lease (for your property) was created. The rent amounts and timing, and length of lease, are unknown. You'd need to find that lease.

    The Land Registry, from what you say, has Registered Titles for 1 & 2 above but not, surprisingly, 3.
    Last edited by G_M; 13-04-2018 at 5:45 PM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Apr 18, 5:44 PM
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    • 55,922 Thanks
    G_M
    XX somewhere st XXX XHY - Leasehold = Just downloaded and is for just my property. It list me, the lease and my bank. The title plan just covers my property.
    Ring the LR on Monday.
    Quote the Title number.
    Ask if they hold a copy of the lease.
    • anticlaus105
    • By anticlaus105 13th Apr 18, 5:45 PM
    • 339 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    anticlaus105
    I really am starting to learn stuff. There is nothing like being in the deep end. The document in #12 is much longer (I only shared the 1st 2 pages) and is called Official Copy (Lease) 01.07.1871 - GMXXXXX. It was procured by my solicitor who did my residential conveyancing. They said they had access to documents that I couldn't get online. The title number is the same as the one covering the 5 properties.

    Is this the lease or should I contact the LR with my individual title number to see if one is available specific to me?

    LOL. Cross typing again. Thanks for your help again and will do.
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